Rumsfeld's on Bravery

"Jarg" wrote in message
. com...
I'm not suggesting Israel is blameless, merely that they have made
reasonable efforts to change the situation and the Palestinians have not.

OK. What are these "reasonable efforts"? And just list the ones the Israelis
have actually accomplished, please.

Brooks

And incidentally, calling people idiots does not constitute an debate and
in
fact demonstrates the weakness of your argument.
Jarg



"Gene Storey" wrote in message
news:jBNDb.2104$6l1.305@okepread03...
Are you serious? Israel was founded under terrorism. Their biggest
founding
terrorist (Irgun murderers) became Prime Minister: Menachem Begin.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/begin.html

Jesus H. Christ! This thread is full of ****ing idiots!

"Jarg" wrote
But to suggest that both sides are equally to blame does Israel an
injustice.

Jarg

"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..

Because the assassin is deliberately doing an action that he knows
is likely to increase the probability of his death or serious
injury.


Hmmm......, that description would seem to apply to many activities that
probably few people would find courageous. Drug running, gang activities,
armed robbery, etc.

"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 00:22:35 GMT, Kevin Brooks
wrote:

"phil hunt" wrote in message
...

I've no idea whether I am or not. I've never claimed to be
courageous, BTW, and in any case it is irrelevant to the quewstion
of whether Saddam or Rumsfeld is more courageous.

I just find it comical when folks start besmirching someone else's
courage,

I haven't besmirched *anyone's* courage, merely asked about it.

Then forgive me, because the way it sounded from your post it was a case
of
"Saddam demonstrated courage by being an assassin (or more accurately,
assassin-wanna-be--IIRC he screwed up his attempts, at least until he got
to
the position from which he could merely order the murder of those he
disliked), and just what in heck has Rumsfeld ever done that required
bravery?"

I'm not saying he hasn't done anything, merely asking.

Sure.


when their own demonstrations have not exhibited anything superlative
to
the
individual they are commenting about.

Thgat's like saying only tall people have a right to comment on the
height of others.

No, that is like saying that commenting upon another's alleged
demonstrated
lack of courage verges on hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy is when one pretends to have higher moral values than one
actuall y has; I don't recall stating anywhere that I have high
moral values, consequently I am not a hypocrite.

I'd think that questioning the contributions of Rumsfeld, when one has not
himself dared to even match that level of contribution, is hypocritical.


I always hate this kind of dick-measuring

It's not dick-measuring; look, some people might have a big ego
thing about others considering them courageous, but I don't. It's
just another property about people that some have more than others.

It's dick measuring. From your statement it was apparent you wanted to
cast
doubt on Rumsfeld's personal bravery versus that of Saddam

Only if he hasn't done anything that requires bravery. My
understanding of Saddam's life is that he has in the past done
things that do require bravery (of course, people in their 60s are
likely to be less brave than they were in their 20s). Has Rumsfled
done anything that requires as much bravery as some of the things
Saddam has done?

You know, there are a lot of people besides me who have noted that your
assigning the quality of bravery to thougs and assassins is way off
base--you might consider that a clue that you are a bit off-track.


--had you really
been interested in finding out what Rummy has done during his life a
simple
google search would have answered that question quite easily. You got an
answer anyway, and then you tried to pursue it with that ridiculous "was
it
anywhere near a war zone" crap,

Please don't confuse my comments with other posters'.

YOUR post on 15 DEC: "Anywhere near a war zone?" Short term memory problem?

Brooks


and with that you opened yourself to the
stinging question of just what the hell you have done that exceeds his
already demonstrated willingness to accept more risk than the majority us
have on behalf of his nation. You flunked that one,

I don't consider it "stinging" nor do I consider i have "flunked"
it; if you wish to consider things that way, that's your
priviledge, but I was merely giving an honest answer.


--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: , but first subtract 275 and reverse
the last two letters).

"John Keeney" wrote in message
...

"C Knowles" wrote in message
om...
What's amazing is that some in the Arab world are amazed he surrendered.
They must have really bought his line of BS.

The tendency to buy in to the glorious myths of individuals is
pretty common amongst Muslims and Arabs in particular
it would seem.
Hmm, probably the case for most dictatorially governed people,
what they are raised to.

When you stop and think about it, might it be nothing more than an expression of
an inferiority complex of an entire culture? Can you think of a Muslim/Arab who
made a recent contribution in the world of science? Medicine? Technology?
Music? Art? Do you know of anyone of them by name who's accomplished anything
in recent years that's made life better, easier or more comfortable in any way
for people as a whole?

Other than Queen Noor of Jordan, who's an American by birth and who happens to
be a bright, compassionate and gracious lady, not to mention beautiful, the only
thing that comes to mind by way of answer is a bunch of old, radical Muslim
farts sitting around a hovel somewhere teaching a dumb kid how to commit suicide
by blowing up a car bomb, or maybe just himself or herself. How sad that the
only thing they seem able to claim credit for doing well is destruction.

Perhaps they just delude themselves to keep from having to look at themselves
realistically.

George Z.

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

"John Keeney" wrote in message
...

"C Knowles" wrote in message
om...
What's amazing is that some in the Arab world are amazed he
surrendered.
They must have really bought his line of BS.

The tendency to buy in to the glorious myths of individuals is
pretty common amongst Muslims and Arabs in particular
it would seem.
Hmm, probably the case for most dictatorially governed people,
what they are raised to.

When you stop and think about it, might it be nothing more than an
expression of
an inferiority complex of an entire culture? Can you think of a
Muslim/Arab who
made a recent contribution in the world of science?

How about the 1999 Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, Dr. Ahmed Zewail? And he
is the SECOND Muslim Laureate in the chemistry field from the 1990's.

Medicine? Technology?

Two Nobel Laureates in medicine (1960 and 1998).

The historical Islamic impact on those fields cannot be slighted. Muslim
doctors were at one time significantly advanced over their European
counterparts, and some of their advances were adopted by western
practitioners during the middle ages. They also made some significant
headway in the area of mathematics (life would be hard without "zero"),
astronomy, etc., and IIRC they were one of the early users of gunpowder,
well before Europeans stumbled upon it.

Music?

Music is dependent upon the listener's ear--there are plenty of contemporary
Islamic musicians who are all the rage to their listeners. You really need
to be careful here--unless you consider Michael Jackson a wonderful example
of our own musical artists?

Art?

Salman Rushdie ring a bell? And FYI, there is that pesky Nobel thing
again...yep, two Muslim Nobel Laureates in Literature (1957 and 1988). As to
other artists, that would be another field you might wish to stay clear
of--a couple of the more notable western artists of late are that whacko who
enjoys draping fabric over vast distances of countryside and the other bozo
who has been traveling around the world taking photos of naked people laying
in streets, etc. Neither exactly make me want to beat my chest with pride in
their accomplishments.

Do you know of anyone of them by name who's accomplished anything
in recent years that's made life better, easier or more comfortable in any
way
for people as a whole?

What, you don't consider a Nobel good enough? Three Nobels in the Peace
category, including the 2003 Peace Prize, won by Shirin Ebadi of Iran.


Other than Queen Noor of Jordan, who's an American by birth and who
happens to
be a bright, compassionate and gracious lady, not to mention beautiful,
the only
thing that comes to mind by way of answer is a bunch of old, radical
Muslim
farts sitting around a hovel somewhere teaching a dumb kid how to commit
suicide
by blowing up a car bomb, or maybe just himself or herself. How sad that
the
only thing they seem able to claim credit for doing well is destruction.

Perhaps they just delude themselves to keep from having to look at
themselves
realistically.

Perhaps you are just not looking in the right places. Nine Nobel Laureates
since 1957 have been Muslims. Your whole post here is rather nauseating in
terms of its bigoted tone.

Brooks


George Z.

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
news

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

"John Keeney" wrote in message
...

"C Knowles" wrote in message
om...
What's amazing is that some in the Arab world are amazed he
surrendered.
They must have really bought his line of BS.

The tendency to buy in to the glorious myths of individuals is
pretty common amongst Muslims and Arabs in particular
it would seem.
Hmm, probably the case for most dictatorially governed people,
what they are raised to.

When you stop and think about it, might it be nothing more than an
expression of
an inferiority complex of an entire culture? Can you think of a
Muslim/Arab who
made a recent contribution in the world of science?

How about the 1999 Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, Dr. Ahmed Zewail? And
he
is the SECOND Muslim Laureate in the chemistry field from the 1990's.

Medicine? Technology?

Two Nobel Laureates in medicine (1960 and 1998).

The historical Islamic impact on those fields cannot be slighted. Muslim
doctors were at one time significantly advanced over their European
counterparts, and some of their advances were adopted by western
practitioners during the middle ages. They also made some significant
headway in the area of mathematics (life would be hard without "zero"),
astronomy, etc., and IIRC they were one of the early users of gunpowder,
well before Europeans stumbled upon it.

Music?

Music is dependent upon the listener's ear--there are plenty of
contemporary
Islamic musicians who are all the rage to their listeners. You really need
to be careful here--unless you consider Michael Jackson a wonderful
example
of our own musical artists?

Art?

Salman Rushdie ring a bell? And FYI, there is that pesky Nobel thing
again...yep, two Muslim Nobel Laureates in Literature (1957 and 1988). As
to
other artists, that would be another field you might wish to stay clear
of--a couple of the more notable western artists of late are that whacko
who
enjoys draping fabric over vast distances of countryside and the other
bozo
who has been traveling around the world taking photos of naked people
laying
in streets, etc. Neither exactly make me want to beat my chest with pride
in
their accomplishments.

Do you know of anyone of them by name who's accomplished anything
in recent years that's made life better, easier or more comfortable in
any
way
for people as a whole?

What, you don't consider a Nobel good enough? Three Nobels in the Peace
category, including the 2003 Peace Prize, won by Shirin Ebadi of Iran.


Other than Queen Noor of Jordan, who's an American by birth and who
happens to
be a bright, compassionate and gracious lady, not to mention beautiful,
the only
thing that comes to mind by way of answer is a bunch of old, radical
Muslim
farts sitting around a hovel somewhere teaching a dumb kid how to commit
suicide
by blowing up a car bomb, or maybe just himself or herself. How sad
that
the
only thing they seem able to claim credit for doing well is destruction.

Perhaps they just delude themselves to keep from having to look at
themselves
realistically.

Perhaps you are just not looking in the right places. Nine Nobel Laureates

Ooops! Make that ten--the '79 Physics prize was also shared by a Muslim.

since 1957 have been Muslims. Your whole post here is rather nauseating in
terms of its bigoted tone.

Brooks


George Z.

Kevin Brooks wrote:
The historical Islamic impact on those fields cannot be slighted.
Muslim doctors were at one time significantly advanced over their
European counterparts, and some of their advances were adopted by
western practitioners during the middle ages. They also made some
significant headway in the area of mathematics (life would be hard
without "zero"), astronomy, etc., and IIRC they were one of the early
users of gunpowder, well before Europeans stumbled upon it.


Sometimes I think that the historical impact is the problem with the Arabs
today: they had a glorious past and led the world 1000 years ago in so many
fields. Now they want to return to those days, but have done little to warrant
it. They got left in the dust and don't like it. I can't blame them, but time
marches on.

There is something fundamentally (pardon the pun) wrong with a society that
hates another more than they love life itself. How sad.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
. com...
Kevin Brooks wrote:
The historical Islamic impact on those fields cannot be slighted.
Muslim doctors were at one time significantly advanced over their
European counterparts, and some of their advances were adopted by
western practitioners during the middle ages. They also made some
significant headway in the area of mathematics (life would be hard
without "zero"), astronomy, etc., and IIRC they were one of the early
users of gunpowder, well before Europeans stumbled upon it.


Sometimes I think that the historical impact is the problem with the Arabs
today: they had a glorious past and led the world 1000 years ago in so
many
fields. Now they want to return to those days, but have done little to
warrant
it. They got left in the dust and don't like it. I can't blame them, but
time
marches on.

There is something fundamentally (pardon the pun) wrong with a society
that
hates another more than they love life itself. How sad.

There may also be something wrong with those who take the actions and rants
of the radical element and ascribe them to the majority.

Brooks




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
t...

There may also be something wrong with those who take the actions and
rants
of the radical element and ascribe them to the majority.


I don't see much condemnation of the radical element from the majority.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
t...

There may also be something wrong with those who take the actions and
rants
of the radical element and ascribe them to the majority.


I don't see much condemnation of the radical element from the majority.

Maybe you are suffering a bit of myopia, then. I guess you consider all of
the Muslims in Turkey to be radicals? We have garnered the support of a
number of predominantly Muslim nations during our recent fight against the
Taliban and AQ--Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Pakistan, and Turkey
all contributed to that fight, as did IIRC Jordan with non-combat support.
I'd think that qualifies as "condemnation" of the radicals, IMO. Not to
mention that lady who just picked up the Nobel Peace Prize.

Brooks