Soaring Community Consumer Warning

On 4/1/2013 5:39 AM, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Lets just say that I'm pretty happy about the chances of a Facebook
method for selling gliders becoming very popular.

Lets also say that the fact that nobody in the sport of soaring
understands how to use social media channels is hilariously obvious.

There seems to be a contradiction in these two statements...

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

Of course, there is this one: http://www.facebook.com/GliderSource
and the twitter feed: http://twitter.com/GliderSource
and an rss feed http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?action=rss
and email subscriptions of new listings
and the SQL/CGI powered web page (not static)

Bill has some good ideas and is well on the way to implementing them. And Sean has raised some valid questions, too (the law of averages at work here)..

Leveraging social media may make sense but as a digital business consultant myself (albeit a hopelessly elderly and senile one), one of my first questions for a client who's dead set on using social media ("We must have social media; the CEO wants it") is: what do you want to accomplish? If the set of potential buyers is very small and they predictably all consult the same few sites to see the same very small number of "for sale" glider ads, how can we add value through social media, value that can't be added in other ways. Otherwise, we risk the old "it's a solution looking for a problem" scenario.

A simple Facebook feed is messy; e.g., GliderSource's Facebook ads are interspersed with news items in chronological (not category) order because they're posted to a timeline. It's easy to find the most recent ads (also on GliderSource.com itself) but not so easy to find a specific type of glider. Plus it appears there's no expire function: 6 of the first 10 ads I clicked displayed "Sorry, The ad you are looking for (item name) is no longer available," forcing me to close the new window in each case and go back to browsing. Not all bad (though nicer than Bill's new competitor Sean's Facebook page) but still probably not going to "destroy" every other soaring want ad site in a year, much less a week.

I'd also venture to say that most pilots looking for a used glider don't even know what an RSS feed is, for example, though I think it's great that Bill (sorry for picking on him--I like most things about his site) offers a lot of choices for communicating information to potential buyers. If I were in the market for a new/used glider--which I have been, on average, every 15-20 years, I'd definitely go to the GliderSource site to look. That's because I suspect there are some gliders there that aren't on the Wings & Wheels site. We know there's one (Bob's Genesis) although, interestingly, it's also on Soaring Cafe's site. So if that's true across the board, why would I need to go to both of those sites? Hmmm.

On the other hand, I'd HAVE to go to Wings & Wheels because that site has ads that don't appear elsewhere. Ironically, Tim has done the rest of his competitors a huge favor: i.e., their sites (or at least some of them) will be visited by interested buyers because there is no single site that holds every listing. Because of this, some of these guys are smart enough to shut up and not try to shame or browbeat Tim into changing his alleged policy.

If I were selling a glider--which I do about as often as I buy one--I would probably just put it up on Tim's site, for the same reason: it's the one site I know people will visit because it has "original content"; i.e., stuff they won't find anywhere else.

Would I regret or resent that Tim might not allow me to post my ad elsewhere? [he has never responded to this thread so we don't really know what his policy is] Maybe. Having more placements out there is better for the seller.. But would I try to harangue him into allowing me to do something he didn't permit on his free site and lecture him about how much better it would be for the soaring community and how it's rude and stupid to do otherwise? I used to try this with my parents. They didn't hang up on me but I suspect they wanted to once or twice.

Sorry guys, but since we weren't on the phone call between Tim and Bob, we don't really know what went down and who, if anyone, was "rude" to whom.

At least Tim doesn't condescend to us, telling us how we're so hopelessly backward that we can't possibly understand the brilliance of his ideas (or refute them). Actually, soaring comprises a great bunch of people. I can't imagine anyone doing that. Certainly I can't imagine anyone on this forum responding to valid criticism with "kiss my ass".

Well, maybe one or two.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

Chip, lets wait a year and see what my 6 minutes (and 20 minutes a week) becomes...

Good luck on your business.

Just a couple of notes in regards to the points that Chip brings up:
Facebook page
It certainly has its limits. I don't even attempt to post all the info, just a teaser usually the title and subtitle of the item (most is caught by the auto-posting link available on each ad's page), and maybe some other info (e.g., price) thrown in. It's all manual (ugh!) and not sortable, just a jumble. A facebook page doesn't make a good database. Granted I haven't even attempted to keep up with the ads that are taken down for whatever reason (sold, etc). BUT, if somebody's following GS on Facebook they can get an advisory when I post something new, and maybe they'll come and check it out.

Technology for technology sake.
The technology I use is a tool to provide the functions that I wanted. User friendly self posting and edit, automatic photo resizing, displaying the number of ads in each category, contact/messaging feature, detailed hit counters, anti-spam, video embedding, sorting, searching, building that cool google map (ok, I did that one just for fun), and management of the site with minimal manual daily work. It's like being on autopilot. It does everything pretty much automatically, I just have to monitor it, talk on the radio, and tweak the heading knob every once in a while.

RSS Feed
I know most people don't know what that its. That's OK. But it is another way for folks to see what's the most recent entries on glidersource.com. If they use a reader to read other feeds (e.g., news, etc) then it might work well for them. The feed is generated automatically whenever the user's reader calls the URL. So, once the programming for that was done, it's all hands off. I am NOT hand coding xml with every new listing, please!

Tim's site is the 800 pound gorilla in the glider ad category. Oh well. But I think you'll find that glidersource.com has the most comprehensive list of instruments, equipment, and other non-aircraft stuff (over 60 items at this time). I would assume that providing free ads for these items would conflict with "the retail operation", plus all the extra manual work.

(Bob's Genesis)[on glidersource.com] although, interestingly, it's also on Soaring Cafe's site
I don't see this as some kind of incongruency.
Bill Elliot, of Soaring Cafe, and I have conversed on several occasions and we support each other's efforts. We're both about helping folks buy and sell their stuff. Like I say on my home page: "Successful advertisers across many industries place their ads in many places, not just one." I think SC has its own niche audience (more contest oriented from my experience). I don't happen to care for the Wordpress plugin's format and paging that SC uses, so I wrote mine to work how I like. But neither of us are going to complain about an ad being on more than one website, much less checking to be sure they're not.

Ernst "Oh, what about get in your gliders that you purchased from wherever and have a good flight. "
I did go flying today! My first 1-26 flight. 10 ads posted automatically to glidersource.com while I was out there. Everything from tires to barographs - check it out at: http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?action=recent

Money quote:

"I did go flying today! My first 1-26 flight. 10 ads posted automatically to glidersource.com while I was out there."

Well done, Bill. I like your site.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneWantAds

100 likes and 1200 views in 2 days.

Free. No requirements at all.

Feel welcomed to post your for sale ad here. I suggest copying and pasting any other ad you have into your Facebook picture submission. You can even include a link to other ads such as glidersource or soaring cafe. I would also suggest adding a link to the Facebook glider want ads post to those ad sites. People can then easily like or share or comment about the ad to friends which is a very powerful capability in making the decision to buy something as important as a glider. These prospective buyers also can easily contact you about your glider via Facebook. Also very powerful...

Perhaps the light bulbs are flickering for some of you who don't get social media marketing? :-). One can hope...

Enjoy!

I would like to point out some obvious facts. First, 25 years ago we didn’t have the Internet & Facebook. We had the Soaring magazine, newspaper classified ads and Trade-a-plane. Technology improved and today we have all of these sources (and more). 25 years from now there will be more of the same. Change. Some formats will disappear and new ones will take their place. Personally, I don’t think Facebook is particularly effective selling tool because it isn’t designed as such. That doesn’t mean that tomorrow Facebook won’t change a bit to make it a great place to source or advertise product. Time will tell.

I will wade in on the comments about the soaring community telling a small businessman how to run his/her business. Soaring is a very niche market. We aren’t talking Walmart or used cars here. These folks derive their livelihood from selling products. If they can generate additional traffic through their “store” and increase sales by requiring exclusivity on used glider for sale ads, I’m all for it. That is being creative. And speaking of used cars, how many of you think you should be able to go to single source and see all used car offerings? Yet you are demanding this for gliders? All I can say is wow (add adjectives describing negative aspects of human behavior).

DWI (Navy SEAL lingo for deal with it) and then go buy a glider.

I agree, Sean (I feel so WRONG about saying that!). Time will tell.

I suspect none of these sites will look the same way in a year. I do think there's a tendency for some to look at technology for its own sake, especially many in the self-selected group that participates on RAS.

On the other hand, the newer sites do offer more functionality (DIY ad creation/upload, multiple photos, links, buyer search, alerts of various sorts).. Not all sellers may think that's a plus, or even know how to avail themselves of these features. And adding them to Tim's site would require time and investment that he may not want to make. But in the interim, he may not have to. Because of his tenure and rich history and the relationship he has with a lot of us, he probably doesn't get a lot of push back from sellers if, indeed, he truly has an unwritten exclusivity condition.

And as I said, that actually works to the advantage of both his site AND the other sites.

Buyers may not feel the same way. And if and when there are so many gliders for sale that they begin to complain loudly about not having a true multiple listing service, the market may force changes. But buyers have been complaining for years about the lack of an MLS in New York City and real estate brokers/agents are just fine with it.

Technology is not a goal; it's a means to an end. It is useful to solve problems and to create competitive advantage. The used sailplane market is a lot more like selling one-of-a-kind luxury apartments in New York City than searching for discounted airline fares on Kayak, digital DSLRs on eBay, or the latest books on Amazon. So we may be stuck in the Dark Ages for a while longer.

On Thursday, March 21, 2013 7:34:09 AM UTC-7, BobD wrote:
I like many others understand that the glider community is small, and perhaps getting smaller. In trying to sell my glider, I placed an ad on Tim Mara's Wings and Wheels. He states on his website that he offers this for free to help the community. Or so I thought.



Selling a glider is a difficult task, especially in this economy and to a niche interest group. As for me, I'm buying a new glider and need funding from the sale of my present ship. I do all this on a tight budget. So letting the soaring community know about my offering is a marketing effort of importance and I know that to be successful, I need to cover the bases. Not everyone will see an ad in one given location. Coverage is the issue.



I've placed the same advertising offering on SoaringCafe.com's marketplace page. I used the same information there as I did on Wings and Wheels. I've also put the same details here on RAS, and I will likely put them on the SSA paid website marketing pages and anywhere else I feel is appropriate for seeking buyers. I simply want to sell my glider.



I've been a customer of Tim's and have spent a lot of money with his enterprise. Which is why I was stunned when he emailed me back saying I cannot duplicate my ad on SoaringCafe and he would pull mine off Wings and Wheels if I didn't discontinue the SoaringCafe ad. His message was "I don't allow it"...period.



Why would someone who should know the value of a customer, and the small scale of our community, do that? Anyone know why? When I called him he was indignant and said the policy was in his reply email to me AFTER the ad went up. Such a policy is not stated ANYWHERE on his website. It makes no sense since SoaringCafe is not in competition with Wings and Wheels other than advertising other vendors, who pay for that visibility. SoaringCafe's web presence it different.



Tim notified me yesterday that the ad was being removed since I hadn't complied with his demand (24 hours after making it). In calling him to discuss it, he was indignant with me, refused to listen, and hung up. Nice going Tim, you just lost a customer who will now exercise his consumer rights and inform the community of your detrimental decision that undermines my effort to sell my glider. And yes, I will use the internet bully pulpit to let the community know of your attitude towards that community. Hats of to SoaringCafe and goodbye to Wings and Wheels. Honoring and valuing your customers doesn't seem to be in Tim's business plan. I can't think of a worse business attitude.



Beware soaring community of those who make it tough on you…like hanging up on you and not listening. Instead, patronize those who go the extra mile and work with you.



Bob DeLeon

Glider pilot and owner since 1997

It is too darn hard to complain about something free; after all the price is right. On the other hand if one pays for it?.........