SENIORS CONTEST

I see several pilots complaining about loosing
their right to have fun, but I don't see them volunteering
to run contests.


U might be onto something here JJ. How about something
like the 'Turf Open'...with ribbon cutting at progressively
lower heights for extra points at the finish?

JJ,

It still doesn't solve the conflict at the line... ie high speed
traffic descending onto lower speed traffic ahead prior to and in the
finish gate. Converging taffic of this type will still happen, and
perhaps be even more frequent because of even greater disparities in
airspeed and reduced scan time (eyes on the prize, in this case, your
altimeter and moving map).

You make a good point that there is much, much more time for pattern
planning after the finish in a cylinder... but this is where my
argument of LCD becomes most acute. You are saying we should change the
rules to meet the safety needs of those unwilling or unable to perform
in a contest environment.

I'm happy to see such efforts made at a regional level. Contest are fun
and should be enjoyed by many. Just be sure that you're really
improving safety. It's the "enemy you know" argument. But at the
national level, I and others expect some level of competency and
preparation that makes the finsih gate a choice based on energy... lots
of it - you save a minute by burning off your safey altitude with a
flying finish and regulated entry to the pattern. Not enough energy -
you make a straight in approach and stop the glider asap to get your
finish time. Good contest planning by the CD and CM will produce a
natural separation of high and low speed traffic.

I'm gonna start a new thread on this subject with a picture. I don't
think most of us are visualizing the problems a cylinder poses. As
these get answered, you may win a convert. But so far, I'm only hearing
safety dogma without any transalation into how the cylinder will better
regulate traffic... or if there is an argument, it only says it's
bigger therefore it's safer. And while JJ may choose to fly to the far
side of the finish cylinder to decrease density (and I do appreciate
that!), I think the majority of us will be aiming for that short arc
(2,700 feet wide) at 500agl on the face of the cylinder between home
and the last declared turn point.

New thread and picture forthcoming.

OC

At 13:30 20 March 2005, John Sinclair wrote:
Those of us who run contests have an obligation to
do so in the safest possible manner.

I've agreed all along that selection of finish configuration
should be left to
the discretion of the organizers. I certainly wouldn't
argue for making a
gate mandatory. There are a hundred things I can list
that would make
contest flying safer. How about no 2 gliders in a thermal
closer than 500
feet apart, no flying outside 20:1 gliding distance
of an airport with a 75'-
wide paved strip, no ridge soaring, no flying above
12,500'? All of these
would 'solve' bigger safety issues than snuffing out
gate finishes - but they
would change the character of the sport - yup, the
'fun' of it.

I see several pilots complaining about loosing
their right to have fun, but I don't see them volunteering
to run contests.

This feels a little off point and kind of personal,
but...

I've worked my share of contests over the years - and
I very much
appreciate those who put their energies into what is
often a thankless job -
so thank you. I would add that the ASA guys (represented
among the
several pilots you mention) run 20 contest days per
year - every year. It's
open to anyone willing to pay $80 plus the price of
the tows. They also
provide training to pilots new to racing via a mentor
program and a
beginners class. It takes a lot of dedication to keep
it going - and it's a
benefit to the sport. I wish more clubs did it.

9B

"Andy Blackburn" wrote in message
...
snip

appreciate those who put their energies into what is
often a thankless job -
so thank you. I would add that the ASA guys (represented
among the
several pilots you mention) run 20 contest days per
year - every year. It's
open to anyone willing to pay $80 plus the price of
the tows. They also
provide training to pilots new to racing via a mentor
program and a
beginners class. It takes a lot of dedication to keep
it going - and it's a
benefit to the sport. I wish more clubs did it.

9B

How about telling the group what kind of finish the ASA contest series used
last year, and why it was adopted?

At 03:00 21 March 2005, Michael McNulty wrote:

'Andy Blackburn' wrote in message
...


appreciate those who put their energies into what
is
often a thankless job -
so thank you. I would add that the ASA guys (represented
among the
several pilots you mention) run 20 contest days per
year - every year. It's
open to anyone willing to pay $80 plus the price of
the tows. They also
provide training to pilots new to racing via a mentor
program and a
beginners class. It takes a lot of dedication to
keep
it going - and it's a
benefit to the sport. I wish more clubs did it.

9B

How about telling the group what kind of finish the
ASA contest series
used
last year, and why it was adopted?


Oddly enough I think ASA has used cylinders for some
time. They moved
the finish to a location remote from the airport to
avoid conflicts with the
aerobatic box for reasons that had more to do with
the location of the
downwind leg of the pattern than low finishes.

I'll leave it to the ASA guys to provide relevant details.

9B

"Andy Blackburn" wrote in message
...

Oddly enough I think ASA has used cylinders for some
time. They moved
the finish to a location remote from the airport to
avoid conflicts with the
aerobatic box for reasons that had more to do with
the location of the
downwind leg of the pattern than low finishes.

I'll leave it to the ASA guys to provide relevant details.

9B

The Turf finish was a one mile cylinder centered on the IP for 23. It is
now centered back on the airport. The reason it was moved was at the
request of the Turf Soaring School management. Most of us found the
potential for problems greater with the displaced cylinder due to requiring
mental math at the end of a long day figuring out what altitude to finish at
in order to still comfortably make the pattern and runway depending upon
direction of finishing. Computers only calculate to the point of finish,
not beyond.

As long as I've been flying here (9 years) the Estrella finish has always
been a line perpendicular to the runways and centered on the airport.

KC

KC, your exactly the reason why I have no desire to race. Listen to
yourself, or better yet reread your own statements.

Start with:
"sick and tired of others projecting their insecurities upon the
rest of us. If safety is of the upmost importance to them then they
are in the wrong sport. Try bowling or badmitten or just simply
walking away from
glider racing. Life comes with no guarantees. Please leave those of
us
that love the freedom and challenge of flying fast and low alone and
quit
trying to change the sport to a sterile rubberized version of what it
once
was. I truly and honestly think that this will very possibly be the
end of "

Then there's:

"potential for problems greater with the displaced cylinder due to
requiring
mental math at the end of a long day figuring out what altitude to
finish at
in order to still comfortably make the pattern and runway depending
upon
direction of finishing. Computers only calculate to the point of
finish,
not beyond."

"Requiring mental math"? Methinks this is the root of the problem, and
KC has himself given it to us. To me the real champs in our sport, can
do the required math, and do it handsomely. What if the battery dies.
Oh, just crash, can't do math.

I agree with you on the "insecurities" issue. Mine is that when I go
flying whether it be in my glider or at work, that there might be some
idiot in the air who can't do the required math!

Contests are a waste of flying time, when you stand around waiting for
Charlie to see the first puffy before you go. Boring!

I like my buddy Well's idea of let's go at noon or before, if it's
sustainable. Why sit around looking at the sky.

I'd like to go the way of those gentlemen, out east and out west, who
fly great long flights, not just to go around a task and finish "low
and fast" for thirty seconds. Sounds like a bad love making technique,
low and fast, thirty seconds, whew! Anyway!

And lastly, KC, the majority of people want safety. If your so "close
to calling the entire SSA racing scene quits" maybe you should follow
your convictions, and quit.

JJ's right.








Kilo Charlie wrote:
"My feelings exactly Andy. I am very close to calling the entire SSA
racing
scene quits due to this nonsense. Everyone should read the excellent
account of the Reno nationals in Soaring. It puts it all in
perspective."

I am sick and tired of others projecting their insecurities upon the
rest of
us. If safety is of the upmost importance to them then they are in the

wrong sport. Try bowling or badmitten or just simply walking away from

glider racing. Life comes with no guarantees. Please leave those of
us
that love the freedom and challenge of flying fast and low alone and
quit
trying to change the sport to a sterile rubberized version of what it
once
was. I truly and honestly think that this will very possibly be the
end of "


"potential for problems greater with the displaced cylinder due to
requiring
mental math at the end of a long day figuring out what altitude to
finish at
in order to still comfortably make the pattern and runway depending
upon
direction of finishing. Computers only calculate to the point of
finish,
not beyond.

As long as I've been flying here (9 years) the Estrella finish has
always
been a line perpendicular to the runways and centered on the
airport."

KC

I believe that anyone wishing to do low fast finishes
should just go ahead provided that (1) The majority
competing and the contest director feels the same way
and (2) It is done where non-contest pilots cannot
be.
At this point neither appears to be the case so the
debate will likely continue until perhaps some occurance
makes the choice for us.




At 14:30 22 March 2005, Snoop wrote:
KC, your exactly the reason why I have no desire to
race. Listen to
yourself, or better yet reread your own statements.

Start with:
'sick and tired of others projecting their insecurities
upon the
rest of us. If safety is of the upmost importance
to them then they
are in the wrong sport. Try bowling or badmitten or
just simply
walking away from
glider racing. Life comes with no guarantees. Please
leave those of
us
that love the freedom and challenge of flying fast
and low alone and
quit
trying to change the sport to a sterile rubberized
version of what it
once
was. I truly and honestly think that this will very
possibly be the
end of '

Then there's:

'potential for problems greater with the displaced
cylinder due to
requiring
mental math at the end of a long day figuring out
what altitude to
finish at
in order to still comfortably make the pattern and
runway depending
upon
direction of finishing. Computers only calculate
to the point of
finish,
not beyond.'

'Requiring mental math'? Methinks this is the root
of the problem, and
KC has himself given it to us. To me the real champs
in our sport, can
do the required math, and do it handsomely. What if
the battery dies.
Oh, just crash, can't do math.

I agree with you on the 'insecurities' issue. Mine
is that when I go
flying whether it be in my glider or at work, that
there might be some
idiot in the air who can't do the required math!

Contests are a waste of flying time, when you stand
around waiting for
Charlie to see the first puffy before you go. Boring!

I like my buddy Well's idea of let's go at noon or
before, if it's
sustainable. Why sit around looking at the sky.

I'd like to go the way of those gentlemen, out east
and out west, who
fly great long flights, not just to go around a task
and finish 'low
and fast' for thirty seconds. Sounds like a bad love
making technique,
low and fast, thirty seconds, whew! Anyway!

And lastly, KC, the majority of people want safety.
If your so 'close
to calling the entire SSA racing scene quits' maybe
you should follow
your convictions, and quit.

JJ's right.








Kilo Charlie wrote:
'My feelings exactly Andy. I am very close to calling
the entire SSA
racing
scene quits due to this nonsense. Everyone should
read the excellent
account of the Reno nationals in Soaring. It puts
it all in
perspective.'

I am sick and tired of others projecting their insecurities
upon the
rest of
us. If safety is of the upmost importance to them
then they are in the

wrong sport. Try bowling or badmitten or just simply
walking away from

glider racing. Life comes with no guarantees. Please
leave those of
us
that love the freedom and challenge of flying fast
and low alone and
quit
trying to change the sport to a sterile rubberized
version of what it
once
was. I truly and honestly think that this will very
possibly be the
end of '


'potential for problems greater with the displaced
cylinder due to
requiring
mental math at the end of a long day figuring out
what altitude to
finish at
in order to still comfortably make the pattern and
runway depending
upon
direction of finishing. Computers only calculate
to the point of
finish,
not beyond.

As long as I've been flying here (9 years) the Estrella
finish has
always
been a line perpendicular to the runways and centered
on the
airport.'

KC

At 20:00 22 March 2005, Gary Evans wrote:
I believe that anyone wishing to do low fast finishes
should just go ahead provided that (1) The majority
competing and the contest director feels the same way
and (2) It is done where non-contest pilots cannot
be.

I believe it was Winston Churchill That said; 'War
is too important to be left to the Generals'. Bending
that a bit, I would say,'Safe contests are too important
to be left to the contestants'
JJ

Yup you're right Mickey.....you're smarter than I am and much wiser too.
Gosh...wish I could have seen that before. Would have saved me a lot of
time. So let's see.....what did you say should happen...I should quit
racing and JJ is always right? I'll give you the personal satisfaction to
say that you have finally driven me over the edge re following this
newsgroup. Bye.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix