Approach speeds for ILS

I think 90 knots is too slow, unless you have to deal with a tailwind.
The approach is easier to fly at 110 or so, and you get a better
transition to the miss at these speeds. Control response is much more
positive.

My Cutlass RG was based at DCA for 8 years. I normally flew at 120 -
140 knots. All you have to do is chop the power at the middle marker
and fly both the glideslope and the VASI. Your airspeed will decay
quickly. That 200 feet of altitude is nearly a nautical mile
horizontally. Starting at 120 knots and decelerating, that's about 30
seconds. If you are on the glideslope, you won't balloon anywhere.

Good advice on the miss. If you hit DH and there is nothing to see,
pitch to Vy, add power, and get the gear.

Paul

In article , Paul
Hamilton wrote:

All you have to do is chop the power at the middle marker
and fly both the glideslope and the VASI.

That's fine if you have a middle marker. Not all ILS's do.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...
We get foggy here at Tacoma Narrows this time of year (which is the reason I
post more on these groups in the winter than in the summer). One thing we
see a lot of is guys who fly the ILS too fast.

I have no problem with flying the ILS at 90 or 100 knots if the ceiling is
well above minimums, but it seems to me that if the ceiling is 200 feet
overcast you ought to be flying the approach slowly enough that you can land
at that speed. You don't need to configure for a short field landing, but
you are not going to slow from 90 knots to 60 in a Skyhawk in only 200 feet
of altitude, especially if you can't risk ballooning back up into the soup.

CJ,

I don't understand this post at all. It seems to me that 90 kts
to DH is standard way most people are taught to fly an ILS. I
have a plane that's a bit faster and a bit slippery (and less
effective flaps) than a Skyhawk, and I have no trouble throttling
back at DH and landing. True, I'm not landing and turning off
in 1000 ft, but then, most of the ILS I've met are to 5000+ ft
runways.

Ballooning back into the soup shouldn't be an issue. I don't
understand where your "slow from 90 to 60 in 200 ft of altitude"
concern arises. We regularly practice flying the ILS at full
cruise -- 130-140 kts -- right down to DH. If I throttle back
at DH, I have no idea at what point I slow to landing speed. I
simply level off just above the runway and wait until the airplane
decides to land. If I wind up a foot off the runway at 90 kts it's
not a problem.

It seems to me that people should train how they're going to fly
and fly how they're going to train. If they haven't trained enough
to fly an ILS to DH at 90 kts and land comfortably, I don't think
the solution is to have them adopt a different procedure. I think
the solution is for them to train more -- and if they're going to
do the necessary training to practice the 60 kt ILS thing, why not
have them do the necessary training to fly a 90 kt ILS or even a
120 kt ILS?

1) If the field is really at minimums, you have 200 feet to slow down to
landing speed. That is not much time. Better you should be ready to land
before you break out.

I don't understand this at all. Why do I only have 200 ft to slow
down to landing speed? I have 200 ft of descent left -- but usually
1/2 mile from the runway threshold and 2000 ft to land in in the TDZ
(assuming 4000+ ft runway). So it seems to me that I have something
like 4,500 ft to slow down to landing speed.

2) If you decide to go missed, then go missed. Don't change your mind just
because you got a glimpse of the runway as you were flying overhead.

With this, assuming no malfunctions or fuel criticality, I agree.

Cheers,
Sydney

"Snowbird" wrote in message
m...
"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
We get foggy here at Tacoma Narrows this time of year (which is the
reason I
post more on these groups in the winter than in the summer). One thing
we
see a lot of is guys who fly the ILS too fast.

I have no problem with flying the ILS at 90 or 100 knots if the ceiling
is
well above minimums, but it seems to me that if the ceiling is 200 feet
overcast you ought to be flying the approach slowly enough that you can
land
at that speed. You don't need to configure for a short field landing,
but
you are not going to slow from 90 knots to 60 in a Skyhawk in only 200
feet
of altitude, especially if you can't risk ballooning back up into the
soup.

CJ,

I don't understand this post at all. It seems to me that 90 kts
to DH is standard way most people are taught to fly an ILS.

To be fair to CJ, I think his observation is mostly about the poor skills of
pilots he watches at TIW. People here are talking about their own personal
habits, and everyone knows this is an advanced and skilled group of pilots
who won't go all wobbly on breakout.

-- David Brooks

"David Brooks" wrote in message ...

To be fair to CJ, I think his observation is mostly about the poor skills of
pilots he watches at TIW.

I understand that, David. But I still don't understand his
post. I don't understand why he says there are only 200 ft
to slow from 90 to 60 kts, and I think if skills are wobbly
(mine certainly can become so PDQ) the answer isn't to switch
to flying at 60 kts, it's to practice more. Because I think
flying an ILS at 60 kts or slowing to 60 kts before decision
height introduces its own set of issues and would require
specific practice for proficiency.

Cheers,
Sydney

While it IS poor form to come blazing down the ILS to 200 ft minimums in
a skyhawk at 100 kts, wouldnt you agree that most runways that are
capable of ILS landings are more than long enough to sustain the float
and bleedoff of airspeed, and eventual safe landing?

And.. if you do screw the pooch and manage to baloon 200 ft back up...
well.. thats what go-arounds/missed approaches are for.

But.. you are right, too fast is too fast.. and Instrument work is about
PRECISION..

Dave

C J Campbell wrote:
We get foggy here at Tacoma Narrows this time of year (which is the reason I
post more on these groups in the winter than in the summer). One thing we
see a lot of is guys who fly the ILS too fast.

I have no problem with flying the ILS at 90 or 100 knots if the ceiling is
well above minimums, but it seems to me that if the ceiling is 200 feet
overcast you ought to be flying the approach slowly enough that you can land
at that speed. You don't need to configure for a short field landing, but
you are not going to slow from 90 knots to 60 in a Skyhawk in only 200 feet
of altitude, especially if you can't risk ballooning back up into the soup.

You just want to hold your breath when you hear somebody coming down the
ILS. You don't see him, but you hear the engine start to roar as he begins
his missed approach. Then he suddenly breaks through and tries to land
anyway. Sometimes they make it, probably touching down on the last half of
the runway, and sometimes they don't, having to make a go around back up
into the soup, only now the missed approach is all messed up, too.

Two lessons he

1) If the field is really at minimums, you have 200 feet to slow down to
landing speed. That is not much time. Better you should be ready to land
before you break out.

2) If you decide to go missed, then go missed. Don't change your mind just
because you got a glimpse of the runway as you were flying overhead.

Dave S wrote:

While it IS poor form to come blazing down the ILS to 200 ft minimums in
a skyhawk at 100 kts,

Huh? Who says?

--
Peter










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Dave S wrote in message hlink.net...
While it IS poor form to come blazing down the ILS to 200 ft minimums in
a skyhawk at 100 kts

It is? Gosh, what's "good form"?

Sydney

Umm perhaps an approach speed of 1.3 Vs or whatever is called for in the
POH for approach to land?

Awww hell.. you got a point.. If you are comin down the ILS you probably
have Southwest right on your tail trying to give you a Boeing enema and
Approach is hollering at you to keep your speed up..

Would it be poor form to come down at the top of the green arc and just
not use flaps then?

Dave.

Snowbird wrote:
Dave S wrote in message hlink.net...

While it IS poor form to come blazing down the ILS to 200 ft minimums in
a skyhawk at 100 kts


It is? Gosh, what's "good form"?

Sydney

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
Two lessons he

1) If the field is really at minimums, you have 200 feet to slow down to
landing speed. That is not much time. Better you should be ready to land
before you break out.

2) If you decide to go missed, then go missed. Don't change your mind just
because you got a glimpse of the runway as you were flying overhead.

--
Christopher J. Campbell
World Famous Flight Instructor
Port Orchard, WA
I like to fly the ILS at or near the suggested climb speed in the 210 that
comes out to be around 110kts using 10deg.flaps and gear down. Reasons are
that in the case of a go around the transition from approach attitude to
climb attitude is less of a change and the accelerations induced are
minimal,. If anyone here has gone missed in the soup from minimal airspeed
to a steep climb under hard acceleration I would suspect the effect to be
disorienting at the least. Anything I can do to reduce unnecessary
accelerations and maneuevers in IFR conditions seems to be a good thing.
Slowing down from MDA shoulden't be a problem since most airports with ILS
are usually long enough, full flaps, throttle back, and allow the plane to
land. Sometimes there is a tendency on breaking out to try and force the
plane down. I would be more concerned with speed control on a circling
approach to minimums on a dark night with a crosswind.
R.Wallace

If you go around beating the Bush, don't complain if you rile the animals.