No more "Left Downwind"?

Cubdriver wrote:
On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 02:02:12 GMT, Jose
wrote:

The real problem isn't "with you" or "left" or "looking",
but rather the windbags that take two minutes to say anything because
they haven't a clue.

"Jeff--is that you?"

"Yeah, it's me."

"How ya doing?"

"Okay, I guess."

(Heard on a holiday weekend.)

The above is why I avoid small uncontrolled airports on the weekends.

kontiki wrote:
Jay Honeck wrote:


What do you guys think?

I agree with the FAA. I've never added the "left" or "right" into
my radio calls *unless* I am entering the pattern in a non-standard
way. It really is redundant as according to FARs you are supposed to
be familiar with runway information at the destination airport in
advance of your flight.


So you'd rather assume everyone is familiar instead of including ONE
extra word and making sure? Very, very dangerous.

On 2 Sep 2006 06:43:28 -0700, "Jay Honeck" wrote
in . com:

In the year 2006, for airmen to still be limited to a tiny hand-full of
unicom frequencies seems *almost* as stupid as still suffering ...

And consider, that despite frequency/channel separation changes over
the years resulting in the doubling of the number of available
channels, the number of CTAF frequencies has not increased.

I believe it could be "authorized or required..." by entities other than
ATC, such as the airport operator. My understanding is that this is
sometimes done to avoid noise-sensitive areas...




"Sylvain" wrote in message
t...
Jay Honeck wrote:

...
In his opinion (and, apparently, the FAA's), saying "left downwind" is
redundant, since everyone should know that the pattern is left (or
right, if appropriate) hand traffic.
...
What do you guys think?

I remember having had a somewhat related discussion with some
CAP folks concerning operations in non-controlled airfields. Now
reading your piece, I went back to the regs just to make sure I
was not imagining things. The one that talks about operating on
or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace, 14 CFR 91.126,
specifies, in its subparagraph (b) the direction of turns. Ok, it
seems clear enough, one should turn left unless indicated otherwise.

However, the subparagraph (a), as a general introduction, has
the following magic words in it: "Unless otherwise authorized
or required..." -- what does it mean exactly? Notice that
unlike other parts of this chapter which use a similar wording,
it does NOT say 'unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC',
i.e., it does not mention ATC until subparagraph (d).

My interpretation -- which might very well be mistaken, please
correct me -- is that if someone has a compelling reason to do
something different, whatever it might be, it is his or her call.
Am I completely off here? seriously?

And that's in a perfect world, where everybody knows exactly where
they are, and announce it accurately, which is, as anyone who
has operated in a reasonably busy uncontrolled airfield would know,
a bit over optimistic. And you get people who take off in one
direction and land in another, folks coming in from straight-in
many miles away on an IFR approach, etc. pretty much anything goes,
it can be a lot of fun actually.

I other words, I agree with you that every bit helps and that
announcing what you are doing is the sane thing to do (when possible),
even by adding a bit of redundency just to be sure; besides I can't
see how skipping *one* monosyllabic word is not going to reduce the
radio chatter by much.

--Sylvain

On 9/2/06 9:14 AM, in article , "Matt
Whiting" wrote:

Wizard of Draws wrote:

On 9/1/06 10:21 PM, in article
, "Peter R."
wrote:


Wizard of Draws wrote:


I think pilots are the most freakin' anal SOBs on the planet.

And your point is?


They very often lose sight of the forest for the trees.
Is a _single word_ truly worth the bandwidth and time that will be used to
debate whether it's proper to use it?

Then why did you then make a comment that will likely generate even more
wasted bandwidth for a topic far less useful than discussing proper
self-announcement phraseology?

Matt

Did you read my first post, quoted above, where I wrote that pilots are the
most freakin' anal SOBs on the planet? QED.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

On 9/1/06 11:45 PM, in article
, "Peter R."
wrote:

Wizard of Draws wrote:

Give 'em both barrels.

Need a little help finishing today's NY Times crossword puzzle: The clue
is "ill-tempered; grouchy; cross" and it is a five letter word beginning
with c. Ideas?

Hmm, can't be cartoonist...
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

Ditto! When I am coming in I'd like to know where that guy is, many times
they don't know the traffic is right hand, this tells me at least where to
look for him.

Jay Honeck wrote:

We attended a safety seminar on Tuesday during which the FAA presenter
(who was otherwise outstanding) went over a list of unapproved radio
calls. (Number one being, of course, the despised and now-specifically
prohibited "Any other traffic please advise...")

To our surprise, he claimed that the common phraseology "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering left downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City" is
incorrect. In short, he stated that you should say "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City", omitting
the word "left".

In his opinion (and, apparently, the FAA's), saying "left downwind" is
redundant, since everyone should know that the pattern is left (or
right, if appropriate) hand traffic. In high traffic areas, the FAA
thinks that omitting this single word will open the over-crowded unicom
frequencies so that other pilots can squeeze a word in.

Mary and I (and several other pilots) kept quiet during the
presentation, but strongly disagree with him on this topic. IMHO,
saying "left downwind" is clear, concise, and -- most importantly --
clarifies which side of the airport you're on. To assume that everyone
knows whether the pattern is left (or right) is, in my experience,
naive.

What do you guys think?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

saying "left downwind" is
redundant, since everyone should know

It's all about the role of redundancy in air safety. We carry redundant
equipment in our aircraft, in some cases it is mandated. We learn to
fly partial panel, but are still expected to use all cockpit resources.
We check the charts =and= the AFD; a lot of attention is paid to
eliminating "single point failure" modes.

When the single biggest cause of aviation headlines is pilot error,
saying "left" (or "right") multiplies the chance of catching it before
the press does, and does so at miniscule cost.

Maybe the FAA has stock in the newspaper companies?

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Ronald Gardner wrote:
Mary and I (and several other pilots) kept quiet during the
presentation, but strongly disagree with him on this topic. IMHO,
saying "left downwind" is clear, concise, and -- most importantly --
clarifies which side of the airport you're on. To assume that everyone
knows whether the pattern is left (or right) is, in my experience,
naive.

What do you guys think?

ITA with you and will continue to report LEFT or RIGHT downwind, not
just "downwind" *assuming* everyone knows where the pattern is. One of
the biggest things my CFI stressed during training was, *never ASSUME*
what other pilots know/see/are about to do.

ICAM with those who object to excessive unnecessary verbage -- pilots
"in the area" don't need to know you're on the ramp looking for the
restaurant. But it continues to amaze me what a big deal people make of
telling you you're "wrong" to include an "unapproved" word in radio
communication that CLEARLY makes your position or intentions more
specific/precise. The recent exchange over the word "looking" (for
traffic) was a prime example, IMO.

I agree with your point of view. "Left" adds a lot of information to the
call. My personal peeve is pilots "taking the active" at uncontrolled
airports. Which runway is active? I have heard this on calm days at
backcountry airstrips where the pilot was the first to take off that day..

Mike
MU-2


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
We attended a safety seminar on Tuesday during which the FAA presenter
(who was otherwise outstanding) went over a list of unapproved radio
calls. (Number one being, of course, the despised and now-specifically
prohibited "Any other traffic please advise...")

To our surprise, he claimed that the common phraseology "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering left downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City" is
incorrect. In short, he stated that you should say "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City", omitting
the word "left".

In his opinion (and, apparently, the FAA's), saying "left downwind" is
redundant, since everyone should know that the pattern is left (or
right, if appropriate) hand traffic. In high traffic areas, the FAA
thinks that omitting this single word will open the over-crowded unicom
frequencies so that other pilots can squeeze a word in.

Mary and I (and several other pilots) kept quiet during the
presentation, but strongly disagree with him on this topic. IMHO,
saying "left downwind" is clear, concise, and -- most importantly --
clarifies which side of the airport you're on. To assume that everyone
knows whether the pattern is left (or right) is, in my experience,
naive.

What do you guys think?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"