Primary training in a Hi Perf complex acft

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

No, they aren't. that problem was recognised over twenty years ago and
we hand fly whenevr possible, fjukktard.

You may hand fly, but many do not. Some countries are producing airline
pilots with extremely limited skills, and yet they still manage to fly the
aircraft, most of the time.

--
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On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 20:45:03 GMT, wrote:

Bob Moore wrote:

Well, the USAF does primary training in the T-6; hardly a simple A/C.
For the average John Doe I can think of lots of reasons this might
not be a good idea, though certainly there are some people who are
at the high end of that bell shaped curve.


Well.....:-) everyone of my classmates soloed in a T-34 somewhere
between 13-15 hours, and then soloed a T-28 at about 40 hours total.

Yeah, but wasn't there a weeding process that tended to remove the
bottom of the bell curve before they even touched a T-34?

My first flying lesson was in a T-34. I had not flown anything before except
when a neighbor would ask "Want to fly the airplane?"

I think flying the T-34/T-28 was the weeding process.

GeorgeC

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Bertie the Bunyip writes:

You couldn't do it, but that, of course, doesn't mean
it's
complicated. Bottom line, a crewless airplane with you as
their only
hope is going to end up a smoking hole in the ground...

I notice that you still haven't explained the complicated
parts. Very well.
If you're unwilling to do that, then perhaps you can at
least explain the
"parts I couldn't do." What parts are those?

By your benighted standards, brain surgery is just a matter
of drilling and cutting. A butcher, or for that matter, a
carpenter, armed with a few anatomy diagrams ought to be
able to do it, right?

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
george writes:

If you have to ask you're not qualified

If you can't answer you're bluffing.

In your case, even if you can answer, you're bluffing.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Bertie the Bunyip writes:

No, they aren't. that problem was recognised over twenty
years ago and
we hand fly whenevr possible, fjukktard.

You may hand fly, but many do not. Some countries are
producing airline
pilots with extremely limited skills,

You didn't have that geographic qualifier when you made your
sweeping statement. It's true that a few countries are
using ab initio training to breed their own pilots, but
that's a tiny minority.

and yet they still manage to fly the aircraft, most of the
time.

Another weasel-worded qualifier. "Most of the time" is not
good enough. "Our wings do not fall off most of the time"
would not be good enough, either. One sufficiently bad
pilot screw up = one smoking hole.

Every airline pilot with whom I've discussed automation
makes it a point to occasionally do a little hand-flying
just to maintain those skills. And some airport approaches
are best done hand-flying.

-- John Mazor
"The search for wisdom is asymptotic."

"Except for Internet newsgroups, where it is divergent..."
-- R J Carpenter

"John Mazor" wrote in message
news:A4hNh.2386$xE.1804@trnddc08...

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message By your benighted
standards, brain surgery is just a matter of drilling and cutting. A
butcher, or for that matter, a carpenter, armed with a few anatomy
diagrams ought to be able to do it, right?


He equates it like this: http://www.dmartstores.com/opboargambym.html

Dudley Henriques wrote:
One example of what you folks are discussing on this thread would be
the Paris Texas operation back in the sixties run by Junior Burchinal.
(Issac Newton to his friends :-)
Junior would take you from not knowing anything at all, right though a
complete checkout in his Mustang or his Bearcat, or several other
military airplanes.

Funny you should mention Burchinal - I recently finished reading "Zero 3
Bravo" by Mariana Gosnell (about a cross-country flight in her Luscombe
Silvaire) and she has a chapter on meeting him and getting a chance to
fly with him in a T-33. Quite a character! Claimed to be a reformed
boozer (claimed to drink to get his courage up to fly - which he wanted
to do more than anything in the world). A few quotes from the book:

Burchinal:
'"One day I was flying home from Dallas in in a ragwing Luscombe[!] I'd
cracked up the day before landing in a fog when I was half drunk and
stepped on the brakes too hard. I put a cloth over the torn part of the
windshield, had a couple swigs of tequila, and took off."'

(And the reason one person came to view his B-17

'One Israeli made a beeline for the B-17 and started crying as soon as
he sat in the pilot's seat. He told Burchinal why. During World War II
his parents, who were Jewish, hid him and his little sister under the
floor of their house in Holland and told them if they heard a noise in
the night they should run away to a cave that had been prepared for
them. One night they did hear a noise. "The Gestapo came to the house
and slit his parents' throats," said Burchinal. "He and his sister ran
away and hid in the cave. The cave was on a hillside and during the day
they usually stayed there but at night they'd sneak down to the valley
and take food from people's gardens. One day they were standing outside
and saw Germans with bloodhounds climbing up the hill toward them. They
stood hugging each other. They were sure this was the end of their
lives. But instead of a few shots they heard thousands of rounds of
ammunition. Then they saw a B-17 flying up the hillside, shooting at
every German in sight. When it passed them the pilot waved. The Israeli
said he'd never forget that as long as he lived."'

One story, out of several close calls, related in the book:
'Once during a takeoff in the P-38 the canopy's emergency latch came off
and then the canopy itself, tearing loose the top of Burchinal's and a
student's scalps. "By the time they landed, the student's scalp was
flapping in the slipstream," said Bo. (Bo is his son.)

A bunch of other tales, some tall, squeezed into that 14 page chapter.
(E.g. Mariana met the woman from Paris, France who Burchinal claimed was
the first female civilian to solo a T-33. How he came to have his own
chapel, and so on.)

John Mazor writes:

You didn't have that geographic qualifier when you made your
sweeping statement. It's true that a few countries are
using ab initio training to breed their own pilots, but
that's a tiny minority.

Minority or not, it proves that it can be done.

Starting and finishing in a jet airliner is a pretty good proof of concept for
primary training in a high-performance aircraft.

Another weasel-worded qualifier. "Most of the time" is not
good enough.

It's good enough for an entire career, and it's a lot cheaper to cover only
the normal case than it is to train for the exceptions as well.

"Our wings do not fall off most of the time" would not be good
enough, either.

Then no aircraft is good enough, because there is no aircraft for which it can
be said that the wings _never_ fall off.

Every airline pilot with whom I've discussed automation
makes it a point to occasionally do a little hand-flying
just to maintain those skills.

Good for them. But not every airline pilot does this. More significantly,
there are many emergency situations that are not routinely practiced by many
airline pilots. And since airliners are so reliable and normal air travel is
so routine, pilots can get away with this and have productive and rewarding
careers, anyway.

You have to draw a line somewhere. It's possible for a 747 to enter a spin, I
suppose, but spins are not normally practiced by airline pilots, and there
isn't any good way to simulate them. So most airline pilots have no
experience with spins in the aircraft they fly. But is that really a problem?
How often do 737s or 747s enter spins, anyway?

With increasing automation comes a decreasing need for qualification. That's
just a fact of life. And it seems to be an irreversible evolution of
commercial aviation.

Eventually, I expect that airline flights will be fully automated. The lead
flight attendant or purser will press a "start flight" button where the
cockpit used to be when it's time to push back from the gate, and the rest
will be controlled automatically. No need for pilots at all. There is
probably nothing that airlines wish for more, except perhaps free fuel.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Mxsmanic wrote:

This is one reason why I think a small-aircraft pilot might not be the best
choice as an emergency pilot for a large airliner. He would be too tempted to
try to fly the plane by hand, and he'd end up impacting a mountainside at high
speed, simply because flying by hand is the _last_ thing he should be doing in
that aircraft.

He'd more than likely do a better job of it that you would you
fjukkwit.

I suspect he means they might be tempted into 'overcontrolling' but lacks the
vocabulary or brains to say so. I doubt it myself. PPLs probably understand that
issue quite well.

Graham

Mxsmanic wrote:

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

No, they aren't. that problem was recognised over twenty years ago and
we hand fly whenevr possible, fjukktard.

You may hand fly, but many do not. Some countries are producing airline
pilots with extremely limited skills, and yet they still manage to fly the
aircraft, most of the time.

I thought the FAA still held autoland in contempt.

Graham