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#51
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MythBusters airplane on a conveyor belt
Dudley Henriques wrote in
: Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in : Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in : ManhattanMan wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote: gatt wrote: "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message news:f92dnR- I'll bet the Australians use something even better than either of us :-)) Their conveyor belts go in the opposite direction. -c aiee, I need a vacation. ..and their airplanes fly upside down too :-)) They'd say you're entitled to your point of view.... It IS amazing when one stops to actually visualize it; the round globe; the other side of it; and flying in the same sky upside down relative to each other but right side up relative to the individual localities. It's of course obvious to us in the macro sense, but when you REALLY get down to the micro visualization of it all................ :-)))) Bucky Fuller amy have said it best when he said that up and down are completely innacurate. The correct terms for a pilot should be in and out.. I think he was talking about flying, anyway.. Bertie You run into this when you start explaining left and right vs inside and top or outside rudder when dealing with slow rolls :-) Yes, I've been doing that with one of my current students in anticipation of the arrival of the airplane, Or rather, he's been reading a lot and asking me questions about how you know which way to twist the controls inverted. I just told him it's easier to see when your head is upside down! For inverted flight, you push the stick as normal for the direction of roll without concerning yourself with L/R labels. and the rudder just goes in the dirction you want the nose to go. Simple. For rolls, it's the same with the addition of top/bottom rudder for the knife edge transition.. Sound reasonable? Bertie Sounds good. Perspective in aerobatics inverted can be REAL confusing to newbies. The one that I always found fascinating is the different perspective in inverted spins as seen from the pilot's and ground witness perspective. To the pilot the inverted spin will be left, but when seen from the ground, the inverted spin appears to be to the right :-)) This drove the judges nuts on the international aerobatic competition circuit until a pilot being judged for an inverted spin one way realized he has spun the other way and corrected the judge :-)) I haven't done an awful lot of those, but I always determined them to be in the direction I'd depressed the pedal. Not that it mattered! It was only a thrill ride for me anyway. I never used them in competition as I only competed in sportsman. Bertie |
#52
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MythBusters airplane on a conveyor belt
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in : Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in : Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in : ManhattanMan wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote: gatt wrote: "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message news:f92dnR- I'll bet the Australians use something even better than either of us :-)) Their conveyor belts go in the opposite direction. -c aiee, I need a vacation. ..and their airplanes fly upside down too :-)) They'd say you're entitled to your point of view.... It IS amazing when one stops to actually visualize it; the round globe; the other side of it; and flying in the same sky upside down relative to each other but right side up relative to the individual localities. It's of course obvious to us in the macro sense, but when you REALLY get down to the micro visualization of it all................ :-)))) Bucky Fuller amy have said it best when he said that up and down are completely innacurate. The correct terms for a pilot should be in and out.. I think he was talking about flying, anyway.. Bertie You run into this when you start explaining left and right vs inside and top or outside rudder when dealing with slow rolls :-) Yes, I've been doing that with one of my current students in anticipation of the arrival of the airplane, Or rather, he's been reading a lot and asking me questions about how you know which way to twist the controls inverted. I just told him it's easier to see when your head is upside down! For inverted flight, you push the stick as normal for the direction of roll without concerning yourself with L/R labels. and the rudder just goes in the dirction you want the nose to go. Simple. For rolls, it's the same with the addition of top/bottom rudder for the knife edge transition.. Sound reasonable? Bertie Sounds good. Perspective in aerobatics inverted can be REAL confusing to newbies. The one that I always found fascinating is the different perspective in inverted spins as seen from the pilot's and ground witness perspective. To the pilot the inverted spin will be left, but when seen from the ground, the inverted spin appears to be to the right :-)) This drove the judges nuts on the international aerobatic competition circuit until a pilot being judged for an inverted spin one way realized he has spun the other way and corrected the judge :-)) I haven't done an awful lot of those, but I always determined them to be in the direction I'd depressed the pedal. Not that it mattered! It was only a thrill ride for me anyway. I never used them in competition as I only competed in sportsman. Bertie I've always considered Sportsman a difficult category. In many instances the energy management problem is a handful for a newbie, and pilots who do well in Sportsman have to fly extremely well and have a real handle on the basics. A lot of times you can get away with a minor fluff in an Extra and the excess power will cover your butt, but it stands out like a sore thumb in a Citabria :-) -- Dudley Henriques |
#53
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MythBusters airplane on a conveyor belt
Dudley Henriques wrote in
: Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in : Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in : Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in : ManhattanMan wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote: gatt wrote: "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message news:f92dnR- I'll bet the Australians use something even better than either of us :-)) Their conveyor belts go in the opposite direction. -c aiee, I need a vacation. ..and their airplanes fly upside down too :-)) They'd say you're entitled to your point of view.... It IS amazing when one stops to actually visualize it; the round globe; the other side of it; and flying in the same sky upside down relative to each other but right side up relative to the individual localities. It's of course obvious to us in the macro sense, but when you REALLY get down to the micro visualization of it all................ :-)))) Bucky Fuller amy have said it best when he said that up and down are completely innacurate. The correct terms for a pilot should be in and out.. I think he was talking about flying, anyway.. Bertie You run into this when you start explaining left and right vs inside and top or outside rudder when dealing with slow rolls :-) Yes, I've been doing that with one of my current students in anticipation of the arrival of the airplane, Or rather, he's been reading a lot and asking me questions about how you know which way to twist the controls inverted. I just told him it's easier to see when your head is upside down! For inverted flight, you push the stick as normal for the direction of roll without concerning yourself with L/R labels. and the rudder just goes in the dirction you want the nose to go. Simple. For rolls, it's the same with the addition of top/bottom rudder for the knife edge transition.. Sound reasonable? Bertie Sounds good. Perspective in aerobatics inverted can be REAL confusing to newbies. The one that I always found fascinating is the different perspective in inverted spins as seen from the pilot's and ground witness perspective. To the pilot the inverted spin will be left, but when seen from the ground, the inverted spin appears to be to the right :-)) This drove the judges nuts on the international aerobatic competition circuit until a pilot being judged for an inverted spin one way realized he has spun the other way and corrected the judge :-)) I haven't done an awful lot of those, but I always determined them to be in the direction I'd depressed the pedal. Not that it mattered! It was only a thrill ride for me anyway. I never used them in competition as I only competed in sportsman. Bertie I've always considered Sportsman a difficult category. In many instances the energy management problem is a handful for a newbie, and pilots who do well in Sportsman have to fly extremely well and have a real handle on the basics. A lot of times you can get away with a minor fluff in an Extra and the excess power will cover your butt, but it stands out like a sore thumb in a Citabria :-) Actually, energy management was never a problem for me. I did most competitions in a Decathlon or a Lakes. I ddn't do all that many, anyway. Five, I think. Other things got in the way.. Bertie |
#54
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MythBusters airplane on a conveyor belt
"Robert Barker" wrote in message No, I can perhaps understand the misconception in non-pilots. But for a pilot not to understand tells me he slept through a lot of his ground school... Or just hasn't thought it through fully. If you don't properly visualize the experiment it's easy to think "Well, that's stupid. The airplane's not going to take off from a conveyor belt because it's not going anywhere. Otherwise, it would take off if you were sitting on the ground and applied full throttle..." ....which, of course, is exactly what it does. ...just not where you've parked it. The discussion must specifiy the length of the conveyor belt because when I heard it I visualized a treadmill about the same length as the airplane and thought the experiment was talking about VTOL. -c |
#55
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MythBusters airplane on a conveyor belt
"gatt" wrote in message
... "Robert Barker" wrote in message No, I can perhaps understand the misconception in non-pilots. But for a pilot not to understand tells me he slept through a lot of his ground school... Or just hasn't thought it through fully. If you don't properly visualize the experiment it's easy to think "Well, that's stupid. The airplane's not going to take off from a conveyor belt because it's not going anywhere. Otherwise, it would take off if you were sitting on the ground and applied full throttle..." ...which, of course, is exactly what it does. ...just not where you've parked it. The discussion must specifiy the length of the conveyor belt because when I heard it I visualized a treadmill about the same length as the airplane and thought the experiment was talking about VTOL. -c It wouldn't make any difference on the length of the treadmill. The PROPELLER moves the airplane forward and has no relationship to the ground. If we're talking stopping, that's different where the wheels are doing the work and the wheels DO have a relationship to the ground. The confusion is where people thing the wheels have something to do with forward motion like in a car. This is a confusion that no PILOT should have. |
#56
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MythBusters airplane on a conveyor belt
In article ,
"Robert Barker" wrote: "Jim Logajan" wrote in message .. . "Robert Barker" wrote: wrote in message .. . On Jan 30, 2:36 pm, Peter Clark wrote: For those interested in such things, the MythBusters show titled "Airplane on a Conveyor Belt" is in TVGuide to air tonight at 9pm Eastern US on Discovery/Discovery HD. Any pilot (including the one that flew the plane on the show) and believed they'd stand "like a brick" should fear their next BFR. Why? His conceptual confusion is obviously not uncommon or entirely without cause - after all, consider the case of landing on that same treadmill and applying the brakes. What do you think happens? Is it immediately obvious, or do you have to spend some time thinking about it to get the resulting motion correct? No, I can perhaps understand the misconception in non-pilots. But for a pilot not to understand tells me he slept through a lot of his ground school... It is possible that the pilot was told by the producers to say this even though he knew better in order to create drama. I'm not saying this happened, only that it's a possibility. This sort of thing does happen in television. rg |
#57
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MythBusters airplane on a conveyor belt
Ron Garret wrote:
In article , "Robert Barker" wrote: "Jim Logajan" wrote in message .. . "Robert Barker" wrote: wrote in message .. . On Jan 30, 2:36 pm, Peter Clark wrote: For those interested in such things, the MythBusters show titled "Airplane on a Conveyor Belt" is in TVGuide to air tonight at 9pm Eastern US on Discovery/Discovery HD. Any pilot (including the one that flew the plane on the show) and believed they'd stand "like a brick" should fear their next BFR. Why? His conceptual confusion is obviously not uncommon or entirely without cause - after all, consider the case of landing on that same treadmill and applying the brakes. What do you think happens? Is it immediately obvious, or do you have to spend some time thinking about it to get the resulting motion correct? No, I can perhaps understand the misconception in non-pilots. But for a pilot not to understand tells me he slept through a lot of his ground school... It is possible that the pilot was told by the producers to say this even though he knew better in order to create drama. I'm not saying this happened, only that it's a possibility. This sort of thing does happen in television. rg Most likely not. It's not surprising really. Many pilots don't have a formal handle on physics. Many learn what they have to learn from the books which mostly cover the specific reasons for a certain aerodynamic behavior as that behavior relates to what the pilot "has to know". In other words, many pilots can tell you what makes an airplane turn but might not be able to list the simple machines or explain the mechanical advantage of a pulley system. This isn't meant to put pilots down in any way. In fact, one of the finest air show demonstration pilots I ever knew was a high school drop out. He couldn't explain much beyond what he learned to pass his written, but what a stick he was. That guy could write his name in the sky with a Pitts Special :-) It's great to have a handle on physics, and indeed a great many pilots have an above average amount of knowledge in this area, but finding pilots who REALLY know the higher math and physics (and I mean knowing these things at the level where they have a high degree of comprehension) is a crap shoot. As I say, they are out there for sure, but a high level of understanding of physics definitely isn't a pre-requisite for the PPL. -- Dudley Henriques |
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