Wow

---------------------clip-----------------

The good old days, sure mis them. I flew in a PanAm 747 a few imes
and an Eatern 727 once as a kid and remember getting the wing from the
PanAm crew. Too bad I lost that wing.

The good old days when kids get wings from pilots, fire hats from
firemen and badges from policemen. I jnow the firemen still give out
fire hats at open houses, but the cops are no longer someone that
kidslook up to anymore. At least not around here.

*********************************

Wil

Are you talking about the "Leg Spreaders" they used to hand out?

I still have a set in my box of old airplane memorabilia )

Big John

On Mar 3, 10:44*am, Big John wrote:
---------------------clip-----------------

The good old days, sure mis them. *I flew in a PanAm 747 a few imes
and an Eatern 727 once as a kid and remember getting the wing from the
PanAm crew. *Too bad I lost that wing.

The good old days when kids get wings from pilots, fire hats from
firemen and badges from policemen. *I jnow the firemen still give out
fire hats at open houses, but the cops are no longer someone that
kidslook up to anymore. *At least not around here.

*********************************

Wil

Are you talking about the "Leg Spreaders" they used to hand out?

I still have a set in my box of old airplane memorabilia )

Big John

Don't quite follow you with the "Leg Spreaders", but if you are
refering to the bush jumpers wings, I've seen them. lol I meant the
plastic captain's wings that they gave out. :-)

Thinking back, I remember we kids would run up to police cars when
they showed up in our 'hood'. We would bug them to turn on the sirens
and lights and they would hand out plastic badges. Now kids look the
other way when they see cops.

Shame really.

Wil

On Mar 3, 10:08*am, Big John wrote:
-----------clip---------------

I heard the Helio also has crabbing gears. *Ia that right?

------------------------clip-----------------------

Wil

I flew the Helio Courier (USAF U-10) with castering gear.

Felt crazy after landing and nose weather vaned into the cross wind.

If you took off with gear unlocked you landed with it unlocked. This
was to prevent a malfunction and only one gear locking if you tried to
lock in air. Landing with one locked and one unlocked would probably
cause an accident or ground loop at least.

You could unlock in air for landing as no failure in unlocking system.

I played with system to keep current but never had to use it in
practice.

Big John

Did you fly in 'Nam John?

WIl

On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 08:10:55 -0800 (PST), William Hung
wrote:

On Mar 3, 10:44*am, Big John wrote:
---------------------clip-----------------

The good old days, sure mis them. *I flew in a PanAm 747 a few imes
and an Eatern 727 once as a kid and remember getting the wing from the
PanAm crew. *Too bad I lost that wing.

The good old days when kids get wings from pilots, fire hats from
firemen and badges from policemen. *I jnow the firemen still give out
fire hats at open houses, but the cops are no longer someone that
kidslook up to anymore. *At least not around here.

*********************************

Wil

Are you talking about the "Leg Spreaders" they used to hand out?

I still have a set in my box of old airplane memorabilia )

Big John

Don't quite follow you with the "Leg Spreaders", but if you are
refering to the bush jumpers wings, I've seen them. lol I meant the
plastic captain's wings that they gave out. :-)

Thinking back, I remember we kids would run up to police cars when
they showed up in our 'hood'. We would bug them to turn on the sirens
and lights and they would hand out plastic badges. Now kids look the
other way when they see cops.

Shame really.

Wil


************************************************** ***

Wil

In olden days pilots were a good catch for young ladies. If you had a
set of wings to wear it was half the battle ) They all wanted to go
out with you )

The wings were metal like real ones but nothing in center saying what
airline, etc.

These were probably even before Berties time )

Big John

On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 08:11:30 -0800 (PST), William Hung
wrote:

On Mar 3, 10:08*am, Big John wrote:
-----------clip---------------

I heard the Helio also has crabbing gears. *Ia that right?

------------------------clip-----------------------

Wil

I flew the Helio Courier (USAF U-10) with castering gear.

Felt crazy after landing and nose weather vaned into the cross wind.

If you took off with gear unlocked you landed with it unlocked. This
was to prevent a malfunction and only one gear locking if you tried to
lock in air. Landing with one locked and one unlocked would probably
cause an accident or ground loop at least.

You could unlock in air for landing as no failure in unlocking system.

I played with system to keep current but never had to use it in
practice.

Big John

Did you fly in 'Nam John?

WIl

************************************************** *********

Yep.

0-1 and 0-2. (350+ combat hours)

Ran II DASC at Pleiku during TET era (67-68).

Big John

"Oz Lander" wrote in news:fqgu7o$2qk$1@news-
01.bur.connect.com.au:

Oz Lander wrote:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

"Blueskies" wrote in
. net:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...


Well, he doesn't appear to have made any effort towards putting
the wing down at all. Not his fault.He was obviously never
taught how to do a crosswind landing properly. You'd be amazed
at how many airline pilots beleive that this is the way to do
it... Mostly, they get away with it. The crosswind doesn't
appear to be all that bad. From the drift angle, I'd reckon the
max compnenet to be under thirty knots and steady. Well within
the airplane's capability. He wasn't realy in trouble until the
flare.
Bertie

Bertie

Sounded gusty in the audio of the video...

Wel, the airplane is steady on the approach, so while there are
surely little variations in the wind, really gusty conditions would
have either the pilot or autopilot manipulating the airplane a bit
more than that. He's fine til he tries to kick it straight.



Bertie

The A320 has a crosswind landing limit of 33 kts gusting 38 kts

According to the data at the time, the wind was 35kts, gusting 55
kts.

The incident happened at 13:55 local time
The flight LH 044 (D-AIQP), an A320 from MUC (Munich)
The landing runway was 23 LOC-DME (ATIS gave no other option)
after the go-around the pilots elected runway 33 also LOC-DME
approach
and landed safely but minus the left winglet...
immediately after the incident ATIS gave runway 23 and 33 as well

For got the ATIS!
EDDH 011220Z 29028G48KT 9000 -SHRA FEW011 BKN014 07/05 Q0984 TEMPO
29035G55KT 4000 SHRA BKN008


Well, it's not 90 degrees, though that'd only knock 15% off the figures,
and the 35 gusting 55 is a tempo. it;'s only the actual they're giving
on the approach that matters at the time and there's no way of finding
out what that was on th enet AFAIK, someone might.
It's immaterial, however. The drift angle as he crossed the threshold
wasn't excessive and it's pretty clear no attempt was made to put the
right wing down, which is what was needed. If he had the controls
crossed to nearly max and the drift was still excessive then he would
have been exceeding what was the practical limit for the airplane. He
didn't. It may be that he couldn't ( I've e-mailed an A320 driver of my
acquantence to find out) but the relevance to everyone else is, that
that is exactly what will happen to any airplane if you try and "kick it
straight" as you flare.


Bertie

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:


Totally agree. I can still see Bevo flying that thing. An
absolutely wonderful airplane.

I must make an effort to get out in a Jungmannn one day. I have
heard a rumor of one for rent near a place I overnight in....


Bertie
By all means do so if you can. I've not flown the Jungmann but I've
been told it's a great bird.
Closest I got was the Great Lakes. Good times for sure!


I love the Lakes. I've only flown "new" ones, but a close friend has
a '29 with a 260 Franklin. he lives a long way from me ( but very
close to you) I'm hoping to meet up with him this summer.


Bertie

Let me know when your coming. We'll have a few together.


Looking like april at the moment. My e-mail is a bit fuxored at the
moment, BTW. Can't send.


Bertie

William Hung wrote in
:

On Mar 3, 6:32*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
William Hung wrote
innews:01d608a8-8d76-49a6-9dad-3bc6
:





On Mar 2, 7:57*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
William Hung wrote
innews:bff1ba6f-28ab-44c0-884e-85cc
:

On Mar 2, 5:25*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote
:

We had a couple of very windy days over here in Europe.
Look at a crosswind landing of an A320 at HAM, a near crash:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Nice pic:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536882887
&filename=phpOltUWB
...

Next time someone tries to tell you that airliners just "kick
it straight"

when they land, like this guy did, show em this...

Bertie

Remnds me of this video.
*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9M3m1U-QYA

I can watch tis all day.

Yeah, they are kicking i straight, though they are laying off a
bit of the drift by getting the wing down as the flare. The first
one has th edownwind wing donw slightly. Remember that this
exercise is intended to demonstrate what the airplane is capable
of and not to develop technique. I have a frined who flies the 777
and he tells me it flies just like an airplane. His first line
flight to LHR had mih landing in a strong crosswind. The trainer
next to him asked if he would prefer that he do th elanding, but
my friend pressed on and found it easy. Note that in each
touchdown, the alignment takes place after touchdown, and that th
etouchdonw is positive. the yaw towards alignment is done smoothly
and though you can't see it, they are almost certainly introducing
full aileron ( smoothly) to keep the wing down and to introduce
some very welcome adverse yaw.We used to have to land the 727 like
this and though it felt absolutley awful, it worked OK.

Bertie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I heard the Helio also has crabbing gears. *Ia that right?

Might do. I used to fly a 195 that had them. Awful, really.
The 737 has castering mains. It makes it a bit difficult to taxi,
actually (just go to to th esupermaket if you don't believe me)


Don't they have a locking option?


Nope. We had a 170 with them but we took them off because they were so
awful. THe 195 was a leaseback and the owner liked them.


sniped

setting would be 215, min 170 and so on. That sounds like a lot and
it is when you are used to it, but add to this the fact that the
flaps wear quickly if you put them out near the max speed and you
have an airplane you must keep an eye on, particularly if you're hand
flying.


That does sound like a lot of work.

Like anything, it's second nature when you get used to it, but even so,
it's one of the things we cross check carefully. Newer airplanes have
alarms for the high speed side so we don't bend them. Some have "load
relief" that retracts them automaticaly if you overspeed.
BTW, the DC-3 also has that feature!


thing you'd find a bit demanding. Although, how do you think you'd
cope with a 6,000 fpm plus rate of climb during take off or go
around?

I think I would cope with that with a big ****e eating grin, what do
you think? :-))))


Depends on your level off altitude! You wou;dn't have time to grin if
you had to level off at 1500 feet, get the power back ( remember that
big trim change with power changes? ) and clean up without exceeding
flap speeds! Go-arounds and takeoffs with a low intercept altitude can
be very messy because of this.

That's what the 757 wil do lightly loaded.
Anyhow, to adress your point, more stable they are not. More
lumbering, maybe, but not more stable. But they need to be flown in a
more stable fashion.


See, that's the term that I have heard from many pro pilots 'more
stable' and that gave me confidence. You tell me that it is 'more
lumbering', that's probably a more accurate description.


Well, they're less flitty, but more stable is't realy what they are. ion
fact, as far as speed control goes they're considerably less stable than
a lightplane.


Of course, not having any experience in them makes make my opinion
just that, only an opinion.

It's do-able, alright. I put a 16 year old from my model flying club
and put him an an old 737-200 sim years ago. I gave him about two
hours of

Where do I get in line? :-)

There are guys who set these things up. A guy that used to work for us
set up these for corporate days out or anyone who wanted to try it. He
even bought an antiquated sim ( I think it was a 707 sim) but mostly he
bought spare time in very modern sims. I used to be able to get a spare
fifteen or thirty minutes in one at the end of a session, but not
anymore. I don't know what the deal is in the post 9-11 era with this
sort of deal, though.
Some of the older sims are still around ( old 737, 727) and some
airplanes use them for generic training and they might be available.



Thanks for a great explanaton Bertie.

Yer welcome!

Bertie

Big John wrote in
:



Bertie

Tell the story about when 727 first came out and a couple crashed
during flare (one was at SLC as I remember).

Bird was dirtiest aircraft I had seen up to that time when on final.
With everything out and down and Stews dragging their feet out of back
stair well didn't hardly look much different than a flying brick )


Oh yeah, it could get a sink rate going that was just horrific. Even
clean it comes down like a brick. THe speedbrakes are quite effective
too, so if you wanted to you could get down real fast compared to other
airliners.


You can correct my remembrance. Bird started to get a bad name and
lots of quick investigations took place. It was found that if pilots
were sloppy flying the handbook airspeed on final and got just a
couple of knots slow they couldn't flare the bird.


Well, you're right except the flare part. What was happening was that
thy would get a messy appraoch going and they would revert to their
previous experince on DC-6s and what not and just haul the power back
and get it going down. Problem with the 727 was that that rate could
easily top 3,000 fpm in just a few seconds and it could take eight
seconds or so for the engines to spool up to approach power again. The
drill with all of these airplanes is to be absolutely on the glide,
fully configured, with the speed at or at least close to, final approach
speed at 1,000', no later. This is a good idea in most jets, but
absolutely essential in the 727. I don't know the specifics of any of
the accidnets, but there was one in Chicago, I think, where they didn;t
even make the airfield. Lots of others, as you say, where the meeting
with the runway didn't go so good.


The fix was to
change the operating manual and raised approach speed 3 or so knots
(just a tweak) and bird became one of the best and safest birds
flying.

Correct me where I have remembered the details wrong.

Don;t know about the increased approach speed, but they might have. I
think the training was probably the key to it's improved record. The
guys flying it, even the military guys, were often coming off of
airplanes that you could toss around at will. The 727 really had to be
flown in a very stable way al the way down. One other thing they did at
some point before I flew it, was to delete the 40 flap position. All
they did was put a bolt on the flap gate to restrict it's movement!


Bertie

Robert Moore wrote in
46.128:

Bertie wrote
The 737 has castering mains. It makes it a bit difficult to taxi,

Are you sure? I don't recall that our (PanAm) 737s had castering
mains. Of course, they were the early models.

Bob Moore



Yeah, I flew really early 200s as well. They all had them. They didn't
tell you about it, though! If you're taxiing behind one and there is a
camber on the taxyway you can see it leaning, the mains both swung off
slightly. The nosewheel will be on the centerline and the mains not quite
centered. It's nickname in our place was "the shopping cart" because of
this. I have no idea why it wasn't in any of the pilot's manuals. Just a
nice to know rather than need to know, I guess.

Bertie