Stupid Newbie Pattern Question

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...

Note, the following is my "observation", no statistical value....

I have noticed that VFR pilots do not use VOR's in their flight planning
BEYOND their destination.

If you would come in from the east side of the compass rose, and not "look
ahead" in your flight planning, you may not take notice that there is a
VOR out there.

Most VFR pilots, again, my opinion look for land references that they fly
over, and not beyond their destination. If you look on the sectional, one
huge land mark that overpowers any VOR is the reservoir. The transient
pilot will be focused on the reservoir and the airport position in
relationship to the reservoir, not the VOR.

So, most likely, the TRANSIENT VFR pilot won't pay any attention to what
is beyond his destination and won't realize there is a VOR NW of MBO.

May not be wise, but it is human nature. So, to report your position that
you are over the VOR MAY be useless to most transient VFR pilots (not all,
but most).


I don't think that follows at all. Even if you're right that most VFR
pilots don't look beyond their destination in planning their flights, that
doesn't prevent them from looking at their charts while in flight. If
they're approaching Campbell from the east and another aircraft calls
"Campbell traffic, Skylane 1234A over Jackson VORTAC inbound on VOR-A
approach, landing runway 35 Campbell" they should be able to quickly find
the VOR on their charts.



Whether you were WNW or NNW truely wouldn't make too much difference as
you most likely won't see me anyway in the haze or the "ground clutter".


The difference is 45 degrees. The more accurate your report the more likely
I am to see you everything else being equal.



The important thing would be the general direction and distance. Since
the
VOR is a "measured distance", I'd say the actual distance would not be
different then MY own perception.


Your perception of distance may be significantly different than reality.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:Eehpe.31523$xm3.10819@attbi_s21...

It goes well beyond that. VFR pilots fly GPS direct, which totally
eliminates the use of VORs for navigation. (I turn my VORs on, once in a
while, just to see if they still work.)

In flight planning, I really couldn't care less where the VORs are, any
more than I would want to know where the NDBs, A/N radio ranges, or light
beacons used to be. They have *all* been supplanted by GPS in the VFR
world, and the IFR world is slowly (glacially?) catching up to the
technology.

Thus, a position report of "X mile south of the VOR on the 134 radial" is
not going to tell a transient VFR pilot much, without digging out the
sectional chart -- not likely to happen while in the pattern to land. It
*will* help me visualize your location at my home airport, but only
because I learned to fly "in the olden days" before GPS...


What does the navigation method have to do with it? I don't care if you're
using GPS, VOR, NDB, celestial, pilotage, dead reckoning, or an Ouija Board,
if you can't look at a chart and recognize a VOR symbol you shouldn't be in
an airplane solo.

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
. com...

But I know the locals will know where the VOR is.


The transients should as well.



Problem is, the locals will also report their position relative to "the
tanks" or "the bridge", or "5 corners" or other such nonsense for
transients. Even ATC does it at some 'ports.


Anything that appears on the sectional is fair game. That which does not
should not be used.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message

The transients should as well. (know where the VOR'S are)

And you assume this is true, even in the wake of two pilots flying almost to
the Whitehouse?

Lots more out there, where they came from. Argue all you want. Simple fact
is, not all are going to know what VOR's are where, all the time.

Period. Game point match. Reality. A cruel bitch.
--
Jim in NC

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:33:55 +0000 (UTC),
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" said:
"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
One of my local untowered airports has an ILS, so on a busy day with 5
people in the pattern, there is always one bozo doing straight ins (and
making radio calls that the guys in the pattern don't understand) and
disrupting everybody else.
I thought so. The problem here is the guys in the pattern do not understand
that the "bozos" on final have the right-of-way.

5 miles out on an ILS is not "on final". Final is a part of the pattern,
and unless you fly 5 mile patterns, that's not part of it.

Hmmmm... I'm wondering then when cleared for departure at LAN they
said: " Eight thrity three romeo, please expidite as there is a DC-9
on five mile final." :-)) That was their words.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Jay wrote:

Have you done a cross country flight lately, Pete? I don't mean to
Spokane -- I mean CROSS COUNTRY. If so, you would know how ludicrous
your statement truly is.

Jay, I just completed a true XC flight last week, from New York to
California, then up to Colorado and back to NY.

OK, so most legs of this trip were flown IFR, but even during the one
VFR leg (Arizona up to Denver) I needed to know the closest VOR for
PIREP reporting and, more importantly, for contacting flight watch to
receive weather.

--
Peter

The transients should as well. (know where the VOR'S are)
And you assume this is true, even in the wake of two pilots flying almost to
the Whitehouse?

Please clarify, are you holding the ADIZ pilots up as examples of
people who did things as they _should_? I ask because the poster said
that transients SHOULD know where the VORs are. I'm not trying to be a
jerk, but I'd argue that you bolstered his argument.

It seems that the ADIZ violators demonstrated that aspects of their
navigation were not as precise as they 'should' be.

"Ben Hallert" wrote

Please clarify, are you holding the ADIZ pilots up as examples of
people who did things as they _should_?

No, not at all. The poster said everyone should know where every VOR is
along their flight. Kinda obvious that many pilots are not nearly that
competant, since the ADIZ pilots could not handle anything as obvious as
Washington. I would bet that they also had no clue of the VOR's around.

I ask because the poster said
that transients SHOULD know where the VORs are. I'm not trying to be a
jerk, but I'd argue that you bolstered his argument.

Perhaps everyone should, but reality says many do not.

It seems that the ADIZ violators demonstrated that aspects of their
navigation were not as precise as they 'should' be.

Without a doubt. They are just two that got caught. Think of how many out
there don't do anything so obvious, to get caught.
--
Jim in NC

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...

I swear, the more I read your posts, the more I doubt that you have
actually piloted an aircraft in the last 10 years.

GPS has changed *everything* about flying -- and clinging to the old
VOR system is just another example of calcified thinking.

I have no doubt that 50 years ago some felt the same way about those
pilots who didn't "have a clue" where the A/N radio ranges were, and
nowadays (every now and then) I hear old timers grumbling about the
loss of our NDB approach into Iowa City. Time doesn't stand still, and
many people long for the familiarity of what they know best -- but
pilots are supposed to be lighter on their feet than the average Joe on
the street.

Change can be difficult to accept, and the elderly often find it easier
to just sit back and feign superiority...but I didn't think you were
*that* old, Pete.


What in the wide, wide world of sports does any of that have to do with the
use of a VOR as a reference point in a position report?



Have you done a cross country flight lately, Pete? I don't mean to
Spokane -- I mean CROSS COUNTRY. If so, you would know how ludicrous
your statement truly is.

If not, you really aren't qualified to comment.

We are about to embark on a cross-continent cross-country flight. If
at any point in the next three days I turn on my VORs, it will be
because I am bored, and we will have listened to all our music CDs.

Stupidly, I might attempt to use my 1950s-tech dual VORs to
"cross-check" my dual GPS-verified position, even though I know that
they are exponentially less accurate instruments.

THAT is the reality of VORs to the modern pilot, Pete. Welcome to the
real world. You should have taken the Blue Pill.



It appears you've lost track of the discussion. We're not talking about
navigating by VOR, we're talking about use of a VOR as a reference point in
a position report. Whether I'm using VOR or GPS to fly the VOR or GPS RWY
36 approach at IOW I'm still going to announce my position over the VOR. An
announcement over a defined and readily identifiable point such as a VOR
tells all but the clueless exactly where I am.

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
...

Unless I am about to run into a VOR I could care less where they are and
if I am close to an airport and need to be looking out the window I am not
about to look at the sectional to try to locate one.


Then you shouldn't be flying.