Full before landing checklist in the pattern?

I don't like situational instruction, where one action is required under
one
set of circumstances and a different action is required under a
different
set of circumstances. Teach one procedure that works all the time.



There AIN'T no such thing! If you have an emergency, you're screwed
with that policy!

No! You're screwed when you DON'T follow pre-planned / pre-trained
procedures during an emergency.

In article ,
"Kiwi Jet Jock" wrote:

I don't like situational instruction, where one action is required under
one
set of circumstances and a different action is required under a
different
set of circumstances. Teach one procedure that works all the time.



There AIN'T no such thing! If you have an emergency, you're screwed
with that policy!

No! You're screwed when you DON'T follow pre-planned / pre-trained
procedures during an emergency.



You're screwed if the emergency lies outside your preplanned actions! If
you depend on rote learning while flying, you have no business in the
cockpit!

Checklists are fine, but are NOT the answer to everything! As I pointed
out earlier, having your nose buried in a checlist while in the traffic
pattern is not the smartest or safest use of your attention and eyesight.

I learned that on my checkride...

After a fairly smooth Oral exam, we go out and preflight the plane. We get
in the plane and it is time to go.

It was December, and cold, so the Line Guys had the engine pre-heated and
(mistakenly) told me to use the Hot Start checklist. It was an old plane,
and always gave trouble hot starting. Different instructors and line guys
all had their own "tricks" that they used to get it started.

Of course, that day, none of the tricks I tried worked. And after a few
tries, the DE failed me on the spot. I said that I thought if there was a
mechanical failure of the plane, it should be a reschedule, not a fail. The
DE said that I failed to use the checklist to start the plane, and had I
properly used the checklist, it probably would have started, and even if it
didn't I would not have failed. He also explained to me why what I did
probably caused a vapor lock...

I learned that day that the tricks and secrets that different people have
are probably just old wives tales, and if I want to fly properly, I stick
to the approved checklist in the POH.

And furthermore, that way, if something goes wrong, I have no one to blame
but the manufacturer or the A&P...

Fortunately, the next day, I had no trouble starting the plane, and no
trouble passing my test... And as far as learning that valuable lesson, I
feel lucky that I didn't have to learn that lesson the 'hard way'
(disappointing as it was)...



"Kiwi Jet Jock" wrote in
:

For many years I've observed many (most?) who are accustomed to flying
without checklists ...

3/4 don't check the brakes when they first start to taxi - another 3/4
don't verify they can draw fuel from BOTH tanks prior to runups - 1/2
don't switch on the beacon - 1/2 don't check the vacuum - the list goes
on an on. The problem is the pilots fly the plane the way they were
taught by a person who flys it the way they were taught and so on - in
many cases these instructors have developed lazy / undiciplined habits
over the years - which get passed on to the next person.

By using checklists (and getting used to using checklists) nothing EVER
gets forgotten - and habits are well formed when pilots transition to
higher performance aircraft (where transitioning pilots may initially
be 2 miles behind the aircraft - and checklists become more important
than ever).






"Judah" wrote in message
...
These guys are probably the same ones that tell you that since it's a
school plane, you can use the "abbreviated preflight checklist" and
just check for fuel and oil before going up.

If your students never plan to fly any plane besides the one that they
were trained it, it MIGHT be OK to abbreviate the checklist to cover
only those items that are "applicable" to their plane.

But if you want to train someone to be a good pilot, you build good
habits, which may include checking things that are easy to "assume".

JMHO..

BoDEAN wrote in
:

How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist
when doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I
work with use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152

Checklists are fine, but are NOT the answer to everything! As I pointed
out earlier, having your nose buried in a checlist while in the traffic
pattern is not the smartest or safest use of your attention and eyesight.

The 'answer to everything' is training, and then following those learned
procedures - that's why we spend hundreds of hours in simulators before
being let loose on heavy metal. Checklists are an essential part of that
cockpit discipline - as is 'Aviate - Navigate - Communicate'.

What drops so many pilots in the proverbial brown stuff is the lack of
cockpit discipline - a belief that it "won't happen to them" and if it does
then "I'll sort it out at the time". As an example, a trained, professional
pilot (flying heavy metal) - following training & procedures - would not
attempt to abort a takeoff after V1 if, for example, they get an engine fire
indication - The initial actions of those NOT following procedures is to let
all of their attention focus on the 'problem' - panic - and take a
psudo-random course of action (eg trying to abort - or shutting down the
wrong engine) that gets everyone killed.

At an elementary level pilots often "get away" with not following formalised
procedures in light single-engine GA aircraft (although it still kills far
to many people each and every year) - but the lack of discipline sets you up
to fail as you progress to higher performance aircraft - too many GA pilots
cut too many corners (starting with a lack of cockpit discipline) - these
bad habits stay with them as they accumulate more and more hours in bigger
and faster aircraft - until one day a few peripheral circumstances change
and they get caught with their "proverbial pants down." As humans we all
make mistakes and we forget things - especially when the pressure is on - by
using checklists in many areas of aviation we ensure that we DON'T forget
things - things like lowering the gear in a retractable - things like
terminating flightplans - Things like feathering a prop on a dead engine.
When was the last time someone who flies using a checklist landed a
retractable with the gear up?

This 'nose buried in a checklist / lack of attention' argument is a crock -
as pilots being able to effectively task-switch is a requirement that comes
with being PIC. I can complete a 9 point pre-landing checklist in a high
performance light twin in under 12 seconds @ 140 knots downwind - whilst
keeping an effective lookout - and occasionally talking to the tower in the
middle of it. Once the item is read, most of the items are carried out with
eyes looking outside the cockpit - you shouldn't have to look to identify
parking brake - mixtures - pitch - aux pumps - autopilot disconnect etc. If
you can't perform comfortably at this level whilst maintaining your lookout
and situational awareness then you shouldn't be in the left hand seat.

There is no emergency that can't be made worse by not following procedures.
Get used to using checklists. Everytime.

Hi Duncan,

Kudos for wanting more info on the subject!

I don't remember what aircraft you are flying (if you even said), so your instructors
may not have been too far off, depending. If the plane has a Lycoming engine, you are
at less risk for carb ice due to the way the carb is posititioned near hot engine
parts. But Continental (and Franklin, IIRC) engines are quite prone to carb ice.

There are two main problems with your assumptions on carb ice formation.

The first is the assumption that the dewpoint needs to be close to the ambiant
temperature. That is incorrect because the air temperature drops dramtically inside
the carburetor (due to the venturi effect and evaporative cooling of the fuel), which
can lower the air temp well below the dewpoint (as well as the freezing point!). Of
course, a higher relative humidity is more conducive to formation of carb ice.

The second is the assumption that ice formation is unlikely if the carb heat has been
on for most of the approach. The problem here is that ice is most likely to form when
the thottle is only partially open, as on final approach. This is because the air
cools more than ever due to a higher partial vacuum forming in the venturi. Even
though you may have carb heat on for most of the approach, it won't "tide you over" on
final. Once you turn it off, the carb itself cools rapidly. So you can get ice right
away.

Here is a more learned explation than I have given you:

http://www.sacskyranch.com/crbice.htm

By the way, I am a CFI (who doesn't teach anymore) who can tell you with some first
hand knowledge that there are a lot of CFIs who may be able to fly great and teach
great, but don't know diddly squirt about engines. My advice is to do exactly what the
POH says. For all the griping we do about the "stupid manufacturers", they really are
smarter than most of us when it comes to operation of the mechanical systems.

Best regards,

Steve Robertson
N4732J 1967 Beechcraft A2-24 Musketeer

T-Boy wrote:

In article , says...

T-Boy wrote:

I snip

You land with the carb heat ON?

snip

Turning final, carb heat back off. (Any probs in the land, or even
after landing that might necessitate a go round, I'm ready for full
throttle - no messing around with the carb heat).

--
Duncan

Doing it your way, you may find that full throttle produces little power because
the carb could be iced up. Check your POH. I believe you will find it specifies
the use of full carb heat any time RPM is reduced below the green arc on the
tach. There is a reason for this, especially on O-200 and O-300 powered Cessnas.

Let me assure you that most folks without a crippled hand can push the throttle
and carb heat on a Cessna forward at the same time if need be. If physically
unable, go to full throttle and then turn carb heat off. Full throttle with carb
heat on will still get you enough power to go around (unless you are in a C-150
and have 40 degress of flaps down), especially considering you will have the
carb heat off in about 2 more seconds.

Thanks Steve, it's interesting you and Robert Moore (who's obviously an
experienced instructor) say this. I've never been taught it, and I've
had probably ten/fifteen different instructors over the years. They've
all taught me the way I've described already.

I find it somewhat difficult to believe that carb icing could occur
after have flown a base leg with carb heat fully on, on the final. Bear
in mind that this is a VFR/VMC approach - though sure, on some days,
dewpoint is indeed sometimes quite close to temp.

Any more comments - appreciated. Meantime, I might practice the carb
heat off, throttle on - simultaneous thing (sounds easy enough).

--
Duncan

(Teacherjh) wrote in message ...
Mixture - set appropriately

Mure useful is sometihng like:

Mixture - rich below 5000

That's the problem I was trying to point out. Is the average pilot
reading that going to interpret it as 5000 ft. MSL? Probably. It
also doesn't tell you what to do above 5000.

I often fly to an airport that sits at 4,600 ft. It is also common
for OATs to be 100 - 110F or in summer. Full rich would definitely be
a bad idea at that density altitude.

I think it's important for the pilot to understand the effect of
mixture at higher density altitudes and be able to set it
appropriately, rather than blindly following a checklist instruction.
There's no single instruction that will be applicable in all
situations.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Mixture - rich below 5000

That's the problem I was trying to point out. Is the average pilot
reading that going to interpret it as 5000 ft. MSL? Probably. It
also doesn't tell you what to do above 5000.


It's a checklist - a reminder - not an instruction book. It presumes the pilot
already knows pretty much what to do.

Jose





--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

John Galban wrote:

(Teacherjh) wrote in message ...

Mixture - set appropriately

Mure useful is sometihng like:

Mixture - rich below 5000


That's the problem I was trying to point out. Is the average pilot
reading that going to interpret it as 5000 ft. MSL? Probably. It
also doesn't tell you what to do above 5000.

I often fly to an airport that sits at 4,600 ft. It is also common
for OATs to be 100 - 110F or in summer. Full rich would definitely be
a bad idea at that density altitude.

My airport is at 3650, the mixture is never full rich from May thru October.

full before landing checklist when doing pattern work?

My view is that when in the pattern, you're better off looking for
traffic than reading a list. For more complex aircraft, CCGUMPS gets
everything. I also ask for a Red, Blue, Green check on base and
final.

I also ask for a Red, Blue, Green check on base and final.

Whazzat?

And what's the CC in CCGumps?
--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)