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#61
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This will probably appear in the wrong place thanks to a buggy news server.
Denyav wrote in message ... As a result Kimmel and Short were sent a message that began "This is to be considered a war warning" They also added that Pearl Harbor was only possible target.period. The war warnings did not mention Pearl Harbor as the target, The War warning sent to Pearl on 26 November, to the Army, "Negotiations with Japanese appear to be terminated to all practical purposes with only the barest possibilities that the Japanese Government might come back and offer to continue. Japanese future action unpredictable but hostile action possible at any moment. If hostilities cannot, repeat can not, be avoided the U. S. desires that Japan commit the first overt act. This policy should not, repeat not, be construed as restricting you to a course of action at might jeopardize your defense. Prior to Japanese hostile action you are directed to undertake such reconnaissance and other measures as you deem necessary but these measures should be carried out so as not, repeat not, to alarm the civil population or disclose intent. Report measures taken. Should hostilities occur, you will carry out task signed in Rainbow Five as far as they pertain to Japan. Limit dissemination of this highly secret information to minimum essential officers. " To the navy, "Consider this dispatch a war warning. The negotiations with Japan in an effort to stabilize conditions in the Pacific have ended. Japan is expected to make aggressive move within the next few days. An amphibious expedition against either the Philippines, Thai, or Kra Peninsula or possibly Borneo is indicated by the number and equipment of Japanese troops and the organization of their naval task forces. You will execute a defensive deployment in preparation for carrying out the tasks assigned in WPL-46 only. Guam, Samoa and Continental Districts have been directed to take appropriate measures against sabotage. A similar warning is being sent by the War Department. Inform naval district and Army authorities. British to be informed by Spenavo." The navy received a copy of the army message on 28 November. Strategy and Command, the first two years by Louis Morton, (US Army in WWII, War in the Pacific series) page 119, "In view of the seriousness of the situation, the Army and Navy chiefs felt that commanders in the Pacific should be warned immediately. Already, the Navy had sent out word on the 24th-to be passed on to the Army commanders-that prospects for an agreement with Japan were slight and that Japanese troop movements indicated that "a surprise aggressive movement in any direction, including attack on Philippines or Guam" was a possibility. [37] Now, on the 27th, Stimson asked General Gerow whether the Army should not send a warning. Gerow showed him the Navy message of the 24th, but this failed to satisfy Stimson who observed that the President wanted a warning message sent to the Philippines. As a result, a fresh warning, considered a "final alert," was sent to Hawaii, the Philippines, Panama, and San Francisco. The commander of each of these garrisons was told of the status of the negotiations with Japan, the imminence of hostilities, and the desirability of having Japan commit the "first overt act." Each was instructed to "undertake such reconnaissance and other measures" as he thought necessary and to carry out the tasks assigned in the war plan if hostilities occurred. With the exception of MacArthur, each of the commanders was also warned not to alarm the civilian population or to "disclose intent." At the same time G-2 of the War Department sent an additional and briefer message to Hawaii and Panama, but not to the Philippines, warning against subversive activities." http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/70-7_04.htm has the text on line, in this case on page 117. Strange as it might seem the army basically sent the same message to all its Pacific commands. So which is it ? Did he try to contact people or do nothing Do you think that Navy and Army units in Pasific were alerted and waiting for Japanase to attack? The units were alerted but history showed not to the extent they needed to be. Hardly a blueprint of the Pearl Harbor attack plan. You could only say that if officers of US military intelligence had NOT told to their superiors cleary "Target is Pearl Harbor" but they did say exactly that since Nov,28. There was no Pearl Harbor warning delivered to the US and the last people to know of one would have been the army intelligence, they were not watching the IJN. The diplomatic cables give no warning on any of the Japanese attacks, only that there was a high probability someone would be attacked. Title: The "Magic" background of Pearl Harbor. Publisher: [Washington] : Dept. of Defence, U.S.A. : for sale by the Supt. of Docs., U.S. Govt. Print. Off., [1978] Description: 5 v. in 8 : maps (on lining paper) ; 27 cm. It contains the cables, including decode dates, the transcripts of bugged Japan-US phone calls and state department assessments of the various meetings. There is a project at Purdue University to put the above books into electronic form with an index, I am unsure about its current status. See also Author: Komatsu, Keiichiro. Title: Origins of the Pacific War and the importance of 'magic'. Publisher: New York : St. Martin's Press, 1999. Where as part of the work the author looks at the problems with translating Japanese into English and what sort of effects mistranslations had. So since Nov,28 they knew the target thanks to work of a few men. No, the US intelligence system never predicted the attack on Pearl. Some in US Army intelligence did pick up the "things are automatically going to happen" message and then predicted the Japanese would begin the war on the first Sunday after the deadline, that is 30 November 1941. This did not help the credibility of later predictions. Since their superiors did not respond to their warnings one of them,Thurman,sidestepped the line of command and personaly went all way up to White House,with very clear warning of japanase attack with the name of the target "Pearl Harbor". Which work of fiction states this? The Thurman knew it line appears to be part of the Pearl Harbor movie plot. Presumably the system noticed it was really Dan Aykroyd in disguise with false ID. See for example, http://www.epinions.com/content_68513926788 Geoffrey Sinclair Remove the nb for email |
#62
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Title: The "Magic" background of Pearl Harbor.
Publisher: [Washington] : Dept. of Defence, U.S.A. : for sale by the Supt. of Docs., U.S. Govt. Print. Off., [1978] Description: 5 v. in 8 : maps (on lining paper) ; 27 cm. Pardon me,but but by repeating official stories we cannot learn much more than what we already know. Kimmel and/or his descendants were given chance to defend themselves and to challenge to official version only TWICE,one Navy investigation (There were several Navy investigations but in only one he was allowed to defend himself aganist charges !!!) the other was Congressional and both of them came to conclusion that Kimmel should be exhonorated.period. Kimmels defense were basically "FDR-Stimson-Marshall trio wanted it happen and made it happen by witholding information that was known in Washington and London. All "official" facts were known to panelists but they still accepted Kimmels version. If one entity becomes evidence collector ,DA,police,judge,jury and executioner the evidence that they present becomes irrelevant. The Thurman knew it line appears to be part of the Pearl Harbor movie plot. Presumably the system noticed it was really Dan Aykroyd in disguise with false ID. Military Intelligence Characters of this movie were based on real characters moreover they and/or their relatives were interviewed by the the makers of the movie. |
#63
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There was no Pearl Harbor warning delivered to the US and the last
people to know of one would have been the army intelligence, they were not watching the IJN. Well,we are talking about pre-CIA even pre-OSS era,if you dont count FBI,they were nations only intel agency, BTW Adm.Kramer was Thurmans real life superior too. |
#64
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"Denyav" wrote in message ... Title: The "Magic" background of Pearl Harbor. Publisher: [Washington] : Dept. of Defence, U.S.A. : for sale by the Supt. of Docs., U.S. Govt. Print. Off., [1978] Description: 5 v. in 8 : maps (on lining paper) ; 27 cm. Pardon me,but but by repeating official stories we cannot learn much more than what we already know. Kimmel and/or his descendants were given chance to defend themselves and to challenge to official version only TWICE,one Navy investigation (There were several Navy investigations but in only one he was allowed to defend himself aganist charges !!!) the other was Congressional and both of them came to conclusion that Kimmel should be exhonorated.period. No they didnt - period http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/congress/part_5.html Quote The story of Admiral Kimmel's administration of the Pacific Fleet and supervision of the Fourteenth Naval District as well as General Short's administration of the Hawaiian Department in the critical days before December 7 is the epitome of worthy plans and purposes which were never implemented. The job of an administrator is only half completed upon the issuance of an order; it is discharged when he determines the order has been executed. /Quote Keith |
#65
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#66
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No they didnt - period
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/congress/part_5.html Mr.Willshaw you keep offering old documents and/or monkey court archieves as evidence. I wonder if you are aware that US Congress passed a resolution in 1999 and requested full exonoration of Kimmel. You are still trying to stick old documents that were produced and used by the establisment to cover up their activites. But times are changed now not many are taking offical evidences given in old documents as evidences at all. Many things that you say "did not happen" is (like secret White House meeting in the eve of Pearl Harbor attack and discussion of Attack) DID happen according to sworn testimonies of the Officers. So basically you are telling everyone "dont believe them,believe only to our official version".Heck even Members of Congress do not buy it anymore. Truth is Mr.Willshaw FDR promised nation not to enter WWII unless attacked and he kept his promise. |
#67
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Now what bill was passed to clear Kimmel? Who presented it in the Senate and
who presented it in the House? When was this done? Bill passed in 1999. I got to check for the sponsors. |
#68
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"Denyav" wrote in message ... I wonder if you are aware that US Congress passed a resolution in 1999 and requested full exonoration of Kimmel. Just to set the record straight, it wasn't a resolution.....it was in May 2000, and it was an amendment to the 2001 Defense Bill that requested that both Adm Kimmel and Gen. Short be advanced posthumously on the promotion list to their highest respective grades in which they had served. It was passed unanimously, but President Clinton declined to sign it. It was again presented the following year, but President Bush also declined to sign it. No reason was given in both cases. George Z. |
#69
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Just to set the record straight, it wasn't a resolution.....it was in May
2000, and it was an amendment to the 2001 Defense Bill that requested that both Adm Kimmel and Gen. Short be advanced posthumously on the promotion list to their ighest respective grades in which they had served. It was passed unanimously, but President Clinton declined to sign it. It was again presented the following year, but President Bush also declined to sign it. No reason was given in both cases. George Z. Thanks for correction,I thought it was in 1999. But as you correctly stated no president ever signed it and I think no president will ever sign it. Even no president gave reason for refusal,the reason is very obvious. |
#70
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"Denyav" wrote in message ... The empire was an idea who's time had past, Britains didnt want to be the slavemasters of the world. Really?,I think the British empire officially ended during Suez crisis when US told British rather unexpectedly (at least for the Brits) "stay at home or else". US engagement in WWII had two goals: 1)Defeating Nazi Germany 2)Destroying British Empire Till Suez crisis Brits hoped that US might want to forget second goal,but US had other plans. US engagement in WW2 was in response to an attack just before a declaration of war by Japan and another attack just after a declaration of war by Germany. Please read some history. |
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