Who's flying out of the higest elev airport?

How do you do that? Is there weather reporting at all airports? I can see
setting to field elevation if you're returning to your original point of
departure (I did that all the time in my ultralight), but how do you set it
at a different field without knowing either the Kollsman setting or your
height above ground? Guestimate?
mike regish

----- Original Message -----
From: "ShawnD2112"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 2:39 PM
Subject: Who's flying out of the higest elev airport?



Here in the UK, setting the altimeter to field elevation, QFE, before
takeoff is not only allowed, it's taught and expected. Likewise, when
approaching the airfield, you're expected to reset the altimeter to that
airfield's QFE in the pattern. In the States, we would think that would
lead to all kinds of altitude-related accidents.

Not guestimate. Most airfields have some sort of radio control or
information from the ground. Standard procedure is to give all arriving
aircraft the active runway and QFE so you've got the data and a reminder to
reset your altimeter. If there's no radio manned to give you the
information, you just stick with your enroute QNH and do the mental
arithmetic just like in the States. It sounds daft, and I thought it was
when I first started flying here, but you soon get used to it. I don't
really have a problem and, actually, since I spend most of my time in a
Pitts below 3,000 practicing sequences, I usually leave it on QFE in the
local area because I'm more concerned about my height above ground and it's
pretty flat around the airport. In fact, depending on where I'm flying to
in the UK, the land can be so flat that I just leave it on QFE enroute. I
fly around other airports and generally keep out of everyones' way so it's
not ever been a problem. I also only fly in pretty good VMC, so the actual
altimeter reading in my case isn't terribly critical in most cases.

Shawn


"mike regish" wrote in message
news:LaQ3c.742$bP2.13474@attbi_s53...
How do you do that? Is there weather reporting at all airports? I can see
setting to field elevation if you're returning to your original point of
departure (I did that all the time in my ultralight), but how do you set
it
at a different field without knowing either the Kollsman setting or your
height above ground? Guestimate?
mike regish

----- Original Message -----
From: "ShawnD2112"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 2:39 PM
Subject: Who's flying out of the higest elev airport?



Here in the UK, setting the altimeter to field elevation, QFE, before
takeoff is not only allowed, it's taught and expected. Likewise, when
approaching the airfield, you're expected to reset the altimeter to that
airfield's QFE in the pattern. In the States, we would think that would
lead to all kinds of altitude-related accidents.

Dudley,
I agree with your statement about keeping things standardized. I like to
keep everything that way so I can save what little brain capacity I have for
handling the deviations from standard. Likewise, I apply that same logic to
trimming. I trim for nearly any condition I'll be in for more than about 30
seconds, especially on landing. Nothing to do with stick forces, per se,
but then I'm only flying the airplane away from the trim. The airplane's
flying the basic line all by itself, I'm just flying the bits that are away
from that line. Keeps life less exciting but a bit longer lasting, I
reckon.

Funnily enough, though, this QFE thing is one that you soon get used to and
find that it seldom causes a problem. A person is just as likely to get the
mental arithmetic wrong on entering the pattern as they are to forget to set
QFE/QNH. Nearly all airfields here have a manned radio most of the time.
It's standard procedure to give arriving aircraft the active runway and the
QFE, so you get the information and a reminder. Most airfields have a
standard 1,000 foot pattern, 2,000 foot overhead join (now, if you want to
talk about a stupid procedure, let's get started on THAT one!), unless
otherwise noted, so you reset QFE, shoot for 2,000 feet and Bob's your
uncle.

Interesting your input in the other thread about spinning the Mustang. When
I was volunteering at The Fighter Collection, I was assigned to Moose, a D
model, and used to spend a bit of time reading the pilot's handbook and the
maintenance manual. (Never got to fly in her, though) I seem to remember
the Mustang required something like 10,000 feet to recover from a spin.
True in your experience?

Shawn


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
link.net...
Sounds like a nightmare to me. I've zeroed the needle on occasion for
demonstration work, but I just don't get the logic behind the QFE lobby.
It's just one more thing to worry about changing, and that can lead to
serious problems in the air. I'm a standardization buff. Making as much a
constant as opposed to a variable when it comes to flying has always
seemed
to me the best way to go with things. Having several MORE ways to use an
altimeter just adds to normal altimeter confusion; it;s just one more
thing
that someone can forget to set or change or figure out.
:-))
Dudley
"ShawnD2112" wrote in message
news:GPy3c.2813$m56.1401@newsfe1-win...
Nope, you're not missing anything, Dudley. Except maybe topography. I
don't think there ARE any airports higher than 2,000 feet in the UK, and
there's very little terrain that high, even in the Highlands. The
practice
may have grown up here in Britain because high terrain isn't an issue.
Most
alitimeters over here these days are US manufacture anyways because most
of
the fleet were built in the US.

Your understanding of QFE is correct, it's the station elevation such
that
the altimeter reads 0 at some point on the ground. It can lead to the
odd
problem now and again, but normally isn't an issue. My airport is at
about
500 ft MSL, so if someone hasn't set their altimeter to QFE, but flies
that
pattern altitude as it reads on the instrument (without doing the mental
arithmetic to ADD 1,000 ft), he'll come across the field at 500' AGL.
Add
to this that the Brits join the field at 2000 AGL on the side opposite
downwind (known as "The Dead side"), descend to 1,000' AGL as they pass
crosswind over the far end of the runway, then turn downwind and start
their
descent. This means you get clowns passing the far end of the runway at
500
' AGL, just as you're passing through the same airspace in a climb in
the
Pitts. Normally not a problem as not many GA airplanes can be at 500'
by
the end of our runway, but it's happened to me once and is just
something
I
have to keep an eye out for when flying the Pitts. As I say, in 300
hours
flying in the UK, that's only happened to me once, so it's not common.

Different way of "approaching" the same issue (sorry for the pun).

Shawn
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

"ShawnD2112" wrote in message
...
Dudley,
Interesting that the "right or wrongness" of the issue is of such a
concern.
Isn't it funny how different cultures view the same problem with
different
perspectives? Here in the UK, no motorcycle rider would even think
of
getting on a bike without a full set of leathers, helmet, and
gloves.
In
the States, guys ride in shorts, sneakers, and no helmets where they
can.
On the other side of the coin, Brits "filter" through traffic on
motorcycles, riding between lanes just to get through traffic
faster,
whether it be in the city or the highway. Most Americans think
that's
too
dangerous to think about.

Here in the UK, setting the altimeter to field elevation, QFE,
before
takeoff is not only allowed, it's taught and expected. Likewise,
when
approaching the airfield, you're expected to reset the altimeter to
that
airfield's QFE in the pattern. In the States, we would think that
would
lead to all kinds of altitude-related accidents.

Different perspectives, but who's to say what's right and wrong?

Shawn

Hi Shawn;

Your comment on using QFE in the UK brings up an interesting point
that
I'm
researching right now and perhaps you can answer for me possibly.
Here in the U.S., our altimeters have a Kollsman range of about 27.5
and
32.0. This, considering an average atmosphere, denies you setting an
altimeter to 0 on any airport runway above about 2500 to 3000 feet
MSL!!!
I'm wondering, since QFE is common in the UK, and by definition QFE is
a
station pressure setting that will produce a 0 reading on the
altimeter
when
on the ground at that station; are your altimeters in the UK equipped
with
a
wider Kollsman range in the setting windows perhaps, and if not, how
can
a
QFE setting be used at airports with elevations above our limits here
in
the
U.S? It's an interesting point....or I must be missing something in my
old
age :-))
Dudley

Power on spins in the 51 could use up a ton of altitude. You could only
recover the airplane by reducing the throttle to idle. If you didn't, you
went in, it was that simple. The nose was very high with power; actually
above the horizon. You could easily, even after going to idle, take 5 to 6
turns and 10K to get out of it.
On trim and acro. I like to fly normally with the airplane in trim as you
have stated you like to have it also. The one exception to this was in low
altitude acro work, where I always flew against nose down trim. This gave me
positive stick pressure and a 0 null in pitch, and also served as a safety
for nose up pressure inverted if something happened suddenly during a low
altitude roll.
Dudley

"ShawnD2112" wrote in message
news:Zx34c.307$pA3.32@newsfe1-win...
Dudley,
I agree with your statement about keeping things standardized. I like to
keep everything that way so I can save what little brain capacity I have
for
handling the deviations from standard. Likewise, I apply that same logic
to
trimming. I trim for nearly any condition I'll be in for more than about
30
seconds, especially on landing. Nothing to do with stick forces, per se,
but then I'm only flying the airplane away from the trim. The airplane's
flying the basic line all by itself, I'm just flying the bits that are
away
from that line. Keeps life less exciting but a bit longer lasting, I
reckon.

Funnily enough, though, this QFE thing is one that you soon get used to
and
find that it seldom causes a problem. A person is just as likely to get
the
mental arithmetic wrong on entering the pattern as they are to forget to
set
QFE/QNH. Nearly all airfields here have a manned radio most of the time.
It's standard procedure to give arriving aircraft the active runway and
the
QFE, so you get the information and a reminder. Most airfields have a
standard 1,000 foot pattern, 2,000 foot overhead join (now, if you want to
talk about a stupid procedure, let's get started on THAT one!), unless
otherwise noted, so you reset QFE, shoot for 2,000 feet and Bob's your
uncle.

Interesting your input in the other thread about spinning the Mustang.
When
I was volunteering at The Fighter Collection, I was assigned to Moose, a D
model, and used to spend a bit of time reading the pilot's handbook and
the
maintenance manual. (Never got to fly in her, though) I seem to remember
the Mustang required something like 10,000 feet to recover from a spin.
True in your experience?

Shawn


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
link.net...
Sounds like a nightmare to me. I've zeroed the needle on occasion for
demonstration work, but I just don't get the logic behind the QFE lobby.
It's just one more thing to worry about changing, and that can lead to
serious problems in the air. I'm a standardization buff. Making as much
a
constant as opposed to a variable when it comes to flying has always
seemed
to me the best way to go with things. Having several MORE ways to use an
altimeter just adds to normal altimeter confusion; it;s just one more
thing
that someone can forget to set or change or figure out.
:-))
Dudley
"ShawnD2112" wrote in message
news:GPy3c.2813$m56.1401@newsfe1-win...
Nope, you're not missing anything, Dudley. Except maybe topography.
I
don't think there ARE any airports higher than 2,000 feet in the UK,
and
there's very little terrain that high, even in the Highlands. The
practice
may have grown up here in Britain because high terrain isn't an issue.
Most
alitimeters over here these days are US manufacture anyways because
most
of
the fleet were built in the US.

Your understanding of QFE is correct, it's the station elevation such
that
the altimeter reads 0 at some point on the ground. It can lead to the
odd
problem now and again, but normally isn't an issue. My airport is at
about
500 ft MSL, so if someone hasn't set their altimeter to QFE, but flies
that
pattern altitude as it reads on the instrument (without doing the
mental
arithmetic to ADD 1,000 ft), he'll come across the field at 500' AGL.
Add
to this that the Brits join the field at 2000 AGL on the side opposite
downwind (known as "The Dead side"), descend to 1,000' AGL as they
pass
crosswind over the far end of the runway, then turn downwind and start
their
descent. This means you get clowns passing the far end of the runway
at
500
' AGL, just as you're passing through the same airspace in a climb in
the
Pitts. Normally not a problem as not many GA airplanes can be at 500'
by
the end of our runway, but it's happened to me once and is just
something
I
have to keep an eye out for when flying the Pitts. As I say, in 300
hours
flying in the UK, that's only happened to me once, so it's not common.

Different way of "approaching" the same issue (sorry for the pun).

Shawn
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

"ShawnD2112" wrote in message
...
Dudley,
Interesting that the "right or wrongness" of the issue is of such
a
concern.
Isn't it funny how different cultures view the same problem with
different
perspectives? Here in the UK, no motorcycle rider would even
think
of
getting on a bike without a full set of leathers, helmet, and
gloves.
In
the States, guys ride in shorts, sneakers, and no helmets where
they
can.
On the other side of the coin, Brits "filter" through traffic on
motorcycles, riding between lanes just to get through traffic
faster,
whether it be in the city or the highway. Most Americans think
that's
too
dangerous to think about.

Here in the UK, setting the altimeter to field elevation, QFE,
before
takeoff is not only allowed, it's taught and expected. Likewise,
when
approaching the airfield, you're expected to reset the altimeter
to
that
airfield's QFE in the pattern. In the States, we would think that
would
lead to all kinds of altitude-related accidents.

Different perspectives, but who's to say what's right and wrong?

Shawn

Hi Shawn;

Your comment on using QFE in the UK brings up an interesting point
that
I'm
researching right now and perhaps you can answer for me possibly.
Here in the U.S., our altimeters have a Kollsman range of about 27.5
and
32.0. This, considering an average atmosphere, denies you setting an
altimeter to 0 on any airport runway above about 2500 to 3000 feet
MSL!!!
I'm wondering, since QFE is common in the UK, and by definition QFE
is
a
station pressure setting that will produce a 0 reading on the
altimeter
when
on the ground at that station; are your altimeters in the UK
equipped
with
a
wider Kollsman range in the setting windows perhaps, and if not, how
can
a
QFE setting be used at airports with elevations above our limits
here
in
the
U.S? It's an interesting point....or I must be missing something in
my
old
age :-))
Dudley

On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 at 16:19:25 in message
, Todd Pattist
wrote:

I bet it can't. The highest point in England is 3210' and
Scotland only goes to 4400'.

Correct but don't forget Snowdon in Wales at 3590'

Snowdon in particular is quite formidable to look at as a pedestrian! I
have walked up an easy route three times in my life and it frightened
me!
--
David CL Francis

"David CL Francis" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 at 16:19:25 in message
, Todd Pattist
wrote:

I bet it can't. The highest point in England is 3210' and
Scotland only goes to 4400'.

Correct but don't forget Snowdon in Wales at 3590'

Snowdon in particular is quite formidable to look at as a pedestrian! I
have walked up an easy route three times in my life and it frightened
me!
--
David CL Francis

Is there any one place in particular that you are talking about. I googled,
and it is really pretty.
--
Jim in NC


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.608 / Virus Database: 388 - Release Date: 3/3/2004

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
link.net...
Sounds like a nightmare to me. I've zeroed the needle on occasion for
demonstration work, but I just don't get the logic behind the QFE lobby.
It's just one more thing to worry about changing, and that can lead to
serious problems in the air. I'm a standardization buff. Making as much a
constant as opposed to a variable when it comes to flying has always
seemed
to me the best way to go with things. Having several MORE ways to use an
altimeter just adds to normal altimeter confusion; it;s just one more
thing
that someone can forget to set or change or figure out.

Others have explained that the use of QFE works in the UK because there are
few or no airfields above 2000ft (and tropical depressions are rare). I've
flown there with instructors who knew what we do in the US, and took care to
explain what they are doing and why. Resetting from QNH to QFE *in the
vicinity of an airport* is part of the procedure when receiving the ATIS or
whatever advisory is available, just as it is for us in the US (I always
check, and reset if necessary, when hearing an ATIS - don't you?) and the
QFE is one phrase in the report so it's not easy to forget. The extra step
for a student is more than repaid by not having to do the arithmetic in the
pattern.

You're a standardization buff, and it sounds like a standard procedure to
me. It's just part of the approach checklist. And, if you count them up,
there is one more variable (twist the altimeter) and a lot more constants
(pattern-related altitudes).

Remember also that many UK pilots get pretty quickly into the flight levels,
so there's a need to twist to QNE as well.

-- David Brooks

Agree with the trim conversation. My Pitts' trim is all the way forward at
cruise speed so, by definition, when I'm into entry speeds I'm always in
nose up trim. I like the feeling of positive ffeedback in the stick, so
that seems pretty comfortable to me. I haven't really done much inverted or
low level stuff yet so the noseup trim hasn't come into need. But some day
that'll be useful advice!

Shawn
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
k.net...
Power on spins in the 51 could use up a ton of altitude. You could only
recover the airplane by reducing the throttle to idle. If you didn't, you
went in, it was that simple. The nose was very high with power; actually
above the horizon. You could easily, even after going to idle, take 5 to 6
turns and 10K to get out of it.
On trim and acro. I like to fly normally with the airplane in trim as you
have stated you like to have it also. The one exception to this was in low
altitude acro work, where I always flew against nose down trim. This gave
me
positive stick pressure and a 0 null in pitch, and also served as a safety
for nose up pressure inverted if something happened suddenly during a low
altitude roll.
Dudley

"ShawnD2112" wrote in message
news:Zx34c.307$pA3.32@newsfe1-win...
Dudley,
I agree with your statement about keeping things standardized. I like
to
keep everything that way so I can save what little brain capacity I have
for
handling the deviations from standard. Likewise, I apply that same
logic
to
trimming. I trim for nearly any condition I'll be in for more than
about
30
seconds, especially on landing. Nothing to do with stick forces, per
se,
but then I'm only flying the airplane away from the trim. The
airplane's
flying the basic line all by itself, I'm just flying the bits that are
away
from that line. Keeps life less exciting but a bit longer lasting, I
reckon.

Funnily enough, though, this QFE thing is one that you soon get used to
and
find that it seldom causes a problem. A person is just as likely to get
the
mental arithmetic wrong on entering the pattern as they are to forget to
set
QFE/QNH. Nearly all airfields here have a manned radio most of the
time.
It's standard procedure to give arriving aircraft the active runway and
the
QFE, so you get the information and a reminder. Most airfields have a
standard 1,000 foot pattern, 2,000 foot overhead join (now, if you want
to
talk about a stupid procedure, let's get started on THAT one!), unless
otherwise noted, so you reset QFE, shoot for 2,000 feet and Bob's your
uncle.

Interesting your input in the other thread about spinning the Mustang.
When
I was volunteering at The Fighter Collection, I was assigned to Moose, a
D
model, and used to spend a bit of time reading the pilot's handbook and
the
maintenance manual. (Never got to fly in her, though) I seem to
remember
the Mustang required something like 10,000 feet to recover from a spin.
True in your experience?

Shawn


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
link.net...
Sounds like a nightmare to me. I've zeroed the needle on occasion for
demonstration work, but I just don't get the logic behind the QFE
lobby.
It's just one more thing to worry about changing, and that can lead to
serious problems in the air. I'm a standardization buff. Making as
much
a
constant as opposed to a variable when it comes to flying has always
seemed
to me the best way to go with things. Having several MORE ways to use
an
altimeter just adds to normal altimeter confusion; it;s just one more
thing
that someone can forget to set or change or figure out.
:-))
Dudley
"ShawnD2112" wrote in message
news:GPy3c.2813$m56.1401@newsfe1-win...
Nope, you're not missing anything, Dudley. Except maybe topography.
I
don't think there ARE any airports higher than 2,000 feet in the UK,
and
there's very little terrain that high, even in the Highlands. The
practice
may have grown up here in Britain because high terrain isn't an
issue.
Most
alitimeters over here these days are US manufacture anyways because
most
of
the fleet were built in the US.

Your understanding of QFE is correct, it's the station elevation
such
that
the altimeter reads 0 at some point on the ground. It can lead to
the
odd
problem now and again, but normally isn't an issue. My airport is
at
about
500 ft MSL, so if someone hasn't set their altimeter to QFE, but
flies
that
pattern altitude as it reads on the instrument (without doing the
mental
arithmetic to ADD 1,000 ft), he'll come across the field at 500'
AGL.
Add
to this that the Brits join the field at 2000 AGL on the side
opposite
downwind (known as "The Dead side"), descend to 1,000' AGL as they
pass
crosswind over the far end of the runway, then turn downwind and
start
their
descent. This means you get clowns passing the far end of the
runway
at
500
' AGL, just as you're passing through the same airspace in a climb
in
the
Pitts. Normally not a problem as not many GA airplanes can be at
500'
by
the end of our runway, but it's happened to me once and is just
something
I
have to keep an eye out for when flying the Pitts. As I say, in 300
hours
flying in the UK, that's only happened to me once, so it's not
common.

Different way of "approaching" the same issue (sorry for the pun).

Shawn
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

"ShawnD2112" wrote in message
...
Dudley,
Interesting that the "right or wrongness" of the issue is of
such
a
concern.
Isn't it funny how different cultures view the same problem with
different
perspectives? Here in the UK, no motorcycle rider would even
think
of
getting on a bike without a full set of leathers, helmet, and
gloves.
In
the States, guys ride in shorts, sneakers, and no helmets where
they
can.
On the other side of the coin, Brits "filter" through traffic on
motorcycles, riding between lanes just to get through traffic
faster,
whether it be in the city or the highway. Most Americans think
that's
too
dangerous to think about.

Here in the UK, setting the altimeter to field elevation, QFE,
before
takeoff is not only allowed, it's taught and expected.
Likewise,
when
approaching the airfield, you're expected to reset the altimeter
to
that
airfield's QFE in the pattern. In the States, we would think
that
would
lead to all kinds of altitude-related accidents.

Different perspectives, but who's to say what's right and wrong?

Shawn

Hi Shawn;

Your comment on using QFE in the UK brings up an interesting point
that
I'm
researching right now and perhaps you can answer for me possibly.
Here in the U.S., our altimeters have a Kollsman range of about
27.5
and
32.0. This, considering an average atmosphere, denies you setting
an
altimeter to 0 on any airport runway above about 2500 to 3000 feet
MSL!!!
I'm wondering, since QFE is common in the UK, and by definition
QFE
is
a
station pressure setting that will produce a 0 reading on the
altimeter
when
on the ground at that station; are your altimeters in the UK
equipped
with
a
wider Kollsman range in the setting windows perhaps, and if not,
how
can
a
QFE setting be used at airports with elevations above our limits
here
in
the
U.S? It's an interesting point....or I must be missing something
in
my
old
age :-))
Dudley

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
link.net...
Sounds like a nightmare to me. I've zeroed the needle on occasion for
demonstration work, but I just don't get the logic behind the QFE lobby.
It's just one more thing to worry about changing, and that can lead to
serious problems in the air. I'm a standardization buff. Making as much
a
constant as opposed to a variable when it comes to flying has always
seemed
to me the best way to go with things. Having several MORE ways to use an
altimeter just adds to normal altimeter confusion; it;s just one more
thing
that someone can forget to set or change or figure out.

Others have explained that the use of QFE works in the UK because there
are
few or no airfields above 2000ft (and tropical depressions are rare). I've
flown there with instructors who knew what we do in the US, and took care
to
explain what they are doing and why. Resetting from QNH to QFE *in the
vicinity of an airport* is part of the procedure when receiving the ATIS
or
whatever advisory is available, just as it is for us in the US (I always
check, and reset if necessary, when hearing an ATIS - don't you?) and the
QFE is one phrase in the report so it's not easy to forget. The extra step
for a student is more than repaid by not having to do the arithmetic in
the
pattern.

You're a standardization buff, and it sounds like a standard procedure to
me. It's just part of the approach checklist. And, if you count them up,
there is one more variable (twist the altimeter) and a lot more constants
(pattern-related altitudes).

Remember also that many UK pilots get pretty quickly into the flight
levels,
so there's a need to twist to QNE as well.

-- David Brooks

Its very true about flight levels. You can into them as low as FL035 but
then our class A airspace can start as low as the surface like round
Heathrow and Gatwick.

But then that is no big deal either after encoded altitude being thrown out
by the transponder is in flight levels. It means no mental maths again for
ATC or the pilot. In the UK flying IFR means amongst other things having an
altimeter setting of 1013mb (29.92" hg) once at the transition altitude for
the airspace you are in. That transition altitude can be as low as 3000ft in
uncontrolled airspace.

sg

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 at 19:52:31 in message
, Morgans
wrote:

"David CL Francis" wrote in message
...

Snowdon in particular is quite formidable to look at as a pedestrian! I
have walked up an easy route three times in my life and it frightened
me!
--
David CL Francis

Is there any one place in particular that you are talking about. I googled,
and it is really pretty.

I am not sure what you are asking. I don't like heights much when I am
standing on mountains. To be specific I don't like the last ridge
towards the summit, the pig track and traversing the Grib-goch ridge. My
son, who is an experienced rock climber, would not turn a hair!

But the scenery is beautiful, provided the there is no rain and cloud.

As an extra, although the level of the UK is relatively low a surprising
number of aircraft have come to grief on 'high' ground, particularly
during WW2. I believe some hundreds during WW2.
--
David CL Francis