Introduction: Hello everyone.

("Richard Lamb" wrote)
So I was not right, about being wrong? Humm, I like how today is ending!
Now, if the wifey is in a good mood tonight,......! g

And at your age...
tsk, tsk, tsk.


And with his back...
snap, crackle, pop.

OMG! I'm seeing a leather harness, an elaborate pulley system, candles, two
glasses of wine and a Barry White CD.


Montblack
Thursday is "Survivor" night at this household :-)

Earlier, Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

Anybody have an idea how much these salvaged aircraft sell for? This one for
example?

http://www.usau.com/USAU.nsf/Doc/2001CirrusSR20N244CD

It's an auction, so I think that nobody is going to give you a really
good straight answer. The guys who have the best idea of their value
are those you're bidding against, and I'd bet you probably won't get
the best info from them. At least, not till the auction is over.

From what I've seen, its sort of like playing Monopoly and trading
properties out-of-turn: The inital salvage auction is only the opener,
and you know that there's stuff going on in the background.

For a quarter-million-dollar airplane, the stakes can be pretty high,
even with the damage history depressing the market value somewhat. The
folks who are likely to bid highest and win the auction are those who
either already have replacement parts tucked away or have inside
information about how or where to get those parts. Either that, or they
have the special skills and tools to make the parts. They'll bid high
because they have confidence they can put together an airworthy
airplane with a market value strong enough to outweigh its damage
history and still yield a profit.

Another wild card is that high-value salvage articles like these
Cirruses tend to be pretty heavily blinged with the boxes and the big
screens, but nobody will make any guarantees whatsoever whether or not
that stuff still works. They won't even guarantee that it's all there -
the insurance adjuster usually takes the rackable stuff out to keep in
secure storage, but "shrinkage" of minor boxes and components while in
the yard is still too common.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the site link. Its interesting to see pictures of the
aircraft that I just discussed with the Cirrus rep yesterday!

Actually, it looks to me that the Cirrus wings are made to be
removeable, and in the picture of the SR22 on the auction site
you can see that they have been removed. I don't think that
they cut the spar.

The Cirrus rep that I talked to mentioned that the first CAPS
deployment that they had (up north of Dallas), the rebuild cost
substantially more because the people who loaded the airplane
for transport did not know how to properly remove the wings,
so basically cut them off to fit on the truck!

Reminds me of how the damage in a gear up landing is usually
pretty minimal until the guy arrives with the tow truck and
picks up the airplane to move it ;-)

Don W.

Bob Kuykendall wrote:

Just few trivial points to add to this thread:

Right now there's three Cirrus airplanes on the salvage market on this
one airplane salvage Web site:

http://www.usau.com/USAU.nsf/Doc/SalvageOpening

The aircraft we

* Damaged in an off-airport landing; the page says the BRS handle was
pulled but did not deploy. The right wing broken off at the side of
body.

* Submerged in sal****er during hurricane Katrina; with hangar-swirly
rash.

* Damaged when lowered into trees under BRS canopy; the BRS deployed
during an encounter with airframe icing.

For both of the aircraft damaged in operations, it looks to me like the
wing spars have been broken off at the side-of-body. From the pictures
at the Cirrus Web site, it looks like those airplanes have a one-piece
wing spar that goes from tip to tip. Based on that, I'd guess that the
side-of-body damage is pretty much irreparable. Not that it couldn't be
done; when it comes down to it, anything can be fixed. Just that it's
less expensive to just replace the wing.

Anyhow, all three airplanes have been written off--that's why they're
on the salvage market. But to my eye, I'd guess that if you were good
with the composites you could order a replacement wing set from Cirrus
and put together two flyable aircraft out of those three. That would
return to the fleet 66% of these three "write offs."

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

Earlier, Don W wrote:


... Actually, it looks to me that the Cirrus wings are made to be
removeable, and in the picture of the SR22 on the auction site
you can see that they have been removed. I don't think that
they cut the spar.

I guess that we might disagree on that one point. But that's cool, I
don't know for sure, and I'm prepared to learn that what I think I know
is in error.

I know that the wings of the SR-20 series are made so that they can be
removed, I've seen several pictures of Cirrus fuselages under
maintenance and repair without the wings. It's apparent that the wing
spar fits up into a slot on the bottom of the fuselage.

However, I believe that the wing spar is continuous from tip-to-tip (or
at least close), and that while you can drop the wings off the bottom
of the fuselage, you can't separate the right wing from the left
wing--at least not without trauma.

The one picture I can find of a Cirrus wing without the fuselage on it
is he

http://www.cirrusdesign.com/aircraft...airframe-d.jpg

In that factory photo, they're installing the wing internals on the
upper wing skins while the right and left wing molds are oriented to
match the two wings. The photo doesn't show the wing-fuselage joining
stuff very well, but the line of the spar does seem to be continuous.

It is possible that the wing spar separation might be hidden by the
blue-painted tooling in the photo. But from what I know about
developing composite sailplane wings I think it's unlikely. Structural
joints in composite structures tend to be bulky affairs that aren't
that easily hidden. But again, I'm prepared to be demonstrated wrong as
regards the Cirrus.

Thanks again, and best regards

Bob K.

Morgans wrote:
"Montblack" wrote


And with his back...
snap, crackle, pop.


CHUCKLE You are not far from the truth, but SOMEHOW, I can always manage
the pain... for a while, then I hurt like hell! g

OMG! I'm seeing a leather harness, an elaborate pulley system, candles,

two

glasses of wine and a Barry White CD.


Leather - good; pulleys-no, but I'll have to think about that!;
candles-always; wine-a nice touch; and Barry, Who??? G

Rent the movie "9 to 5"
That scene is absolutely hilarious!

"Montblack" wrote

And with his back...
snap, crackle, pop.

CHUCKLE You are not far from the truth, but SOMEHOW, I can always manage
the pain... for a while, then I hurt like hell! g

OMG! I'm seeing a leather harness, an elaborate pulley system, candles,
two
glasses of wine and a Barry White CD.

Leather - good; pulleys-no, but I'll have to think about that!;
candles-always; wine-a nice touch; and Barry, Who??? G
--
Jim in NC

Bob Kuykendall wrote:
Earlier, Don W wrote:



... Actually, it looks to me that the Cirrus wings are made to be
removeable, and in the picture of the SR22 on the auction site
you can see that they have been removed. I don't think that
they cut the spar.


I guess that we might disagree on that one point. But that's cool, I
don't know for sure, and I'm prepared to learn that what I think I know
is in error.
snip
Bob K.

I don't know for sure either, and I'm also prepared to learn about
my misunderstandings. Over the years there have been a lot of them.


Don W.

"Don W" wrote in message
et...
Hi Bob,
snip The Cirrus rep that I talked to mentioned that the first CAPS
deployment that they had (up north of Dallas), the rebuild cost
substantially more because the people who loaded the airplane
for transport did not know how to properly remove the wings,
so basically cut them off to fit on the truck!

Reminds me of how the damage in a gear up landing is usually
pretty minimal until the guy arrives with the tow truck and
picks up the airplane to move it ;-)



After the hurricane in Florida last year there were a lot of airplanes at
Florida airports with wind damage ranging from minimal to total. Two
friends of mine bid on airplanes from photos that showed the damaged
airplane all in one piece. Apparently the photos were taken before their
local salvage crews moved the airplanes off the ramp. One was a Cessna 182
with minor damage to one wing tip. The other was a new Mooney with minor
damage. Between the time the aircraft went out for salvage bids and the
bids were accepted, the insurance companys local salvage crews went out with
a reciprocating saw and sawed both airplanes in half just behind the wings
to load them on a trailer. In these two cases alone the insurance companys
own salvage crew increased the loss the insurance company had to make good
by over a quarter of a million dollars. Now the insurance companies want to
increase our insurance rates to recover their huge losses. There were
literally hundreds of easily repairable airplanes sawed in half. They sawed
through wireing bundles, controls, and pressure bulkheads. In most of the
cases the damage could have been avoided entirely with just a couple of
hours worth of proper disassembly. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies!

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

10th annual r.a.h. Pinckneyville Flyin coming up May 19, 20, and 21. Make
your plans now before the motels all fill up. Send an email to Mary at
so that she will have food for you. :-)

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Don W" wrote

Actually, what I was referring to was slowing the aircraft from the
20MPH descent under the chute to a sudden stop upon ground impact. You
are correct that the amazing folks at BRS and elsewhere have worked out
a good system for slowing a 2000+ LB airplane from 200 Kts to 20 MPH.

Have you ever looked at the drop test requirement that is required, for
certification? I would be surprised if the chute landing was any more
brutal than a parachute landing!

I don't remember how or where to find it, offhand, but perhaps someone has
it book-marked.
--
Jim in NC


I don't remember the paragraph but it is in FAR part 23.

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

"Montblack" wrote in message
...
("Rich S." wrote)
snip

It would seem that the most elegant solution lies in a prop shroud. No
moving parts, an increase in safety and possible efficiency improvement.

I've heard said improvements in efficency, with prop shrouds, haven't
transfered well from the chalkboard to the airframe.


They have and they haven't. The shroud gains efficiency by minimizing the
tip losses of the propellor. These energy losses are the rotating
propellors version of the wingtip vortices spun off the wing tips as a
concomitant of generating lift. With the prop they are the blade tip
vortices spun off the blade tips as a concomitant of generating thrust.

A tip plate can effectively increase the apparent aspect ratio of the wing
( blade ) and thereby increase its efficiency because of the resulting
decrease in the induced drag.

For this to work properly with a prop shroud the tip clearance must be very
small. Ideally approximately zero! :-)

Of course the shroud itself contributes friction drag that lowers
efficiency. This increases with airspeed. As long as the friction drag of
the shroud is smaller than the reduction in induced drag it provides to the
prop tips the shroud increases the efficiency of the shrouded prop above
that of the equivalent unshrouded prop. The folks at the Aerodynamic Magic
Works down at Mississippi State found that the tradeoff occurs at around 140
mph. Below that speed you gain efficiency with a shrouded prop. At about
that speed it really doesn't make any difference either way. Above that
speed the prop shroud gives a decrease in overall efficiency.

The shrouded prop begins to become more efficient again as the prop RPM
increases, especially at higher airspeeds where standard unshrouded
propellors begin to get into trouble with excessive airspeeds into the prop
disk. With a high RPM engine at high airspeed and high altitude the shrouded
propellor get quite favorable again. These days we call shrouded propellors
in this regime "fanjets." They have allowed modern "jet" aircraft to get
the specific fuel consumption of their engines down from around 1 pound of
fuel per pound thrust per hour, to something slightly over half that amount
of fuel. Making possible airplanes like the 747 and its "ilk."

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

10th Annual Pinckneyville rec.aviation flyin coming up May 19, 20, and 21.
Email Mary at if you are planning on attending and which
days so that she can purchase sufficient groceries. We don't want to run
out of steaks! :-)