Top Gun CUNNINGHAM: I broke the law, concealed my conduct and disgraced my office.

On 12 Jul 2006 16:14:00 -0700, "FatKat" wrote in
.com::


Larry Dighera wrote:
On 12 Jul 2006 14:44:01 -0700, "Gordon" wrote in
. com::

Real fighter pilots have little in common with 'Maverick'; I remember
sitting in that movie with about a dozen other Navy flyers and the
concensus was that any "****BIRD" like him would be grounded and
drummed out.

If the verbal reprimand Lt. Conl. Parker received as a result of
leading his wingman into a fatal collision with a Cessna 172 over
Florida on November 16, 2000 is indicative of how the military
disciplines a pilot who entered congested Class B and C terminal
airspace at ~500 knots without the benefit of the required ATC
clearance, I'm unconvinced your statement above is accurate.

Hardly an adequate description of the outcome

Which, the death of the Cessna pilot, or the verbal reprimand as
fitting punishment?

and the initial assessment.

Initial assessment?

It appears that there was at least an issue as to how much
blame can be shouldered by Parker himself.

There were issues with Parker's navigation equipment and a rookie on
the ATC scope, neither of which contributed to Parker's decision to
descend into congested terminal airspace at high speed without the
required clearance. Parker was just betting on the big-sky-theory to
protect him and the others in along his route of flight.

The article below suggests
that there was a confusion of procedures as to the use of transponders
by multiple formations. At the very least the report also cited ATC.

The Pilot In Command is responsible for the safety of his flight, not
ATC. ATC wasn't providing separation at the time; parker had no ATC
clearance to descend into the Class B airspace. That wasn't ATC's
fault.

Was this a case of bad decisionmaking? For the sake of argument yes -
but not every bad decision elevates the one who makes it to the level
of Tom Cruise.

If Parker were a prudent pilot who followed regulations, he wouldn't
have made the reckless decision to enter terminal airspace without a
clearance. It's not very much different to me.

This was hardly hot-dogging;

Given that the maximum airspeed in airspace below 10,000' is
restricted below 250 knots normally, I would say traveling twice that
speed while performing G-shock maneuvers would come pretty close.

on the other hand, there
is the case of Richard Webb, who made a high-speed pass of San Luis
Obispo in a Super Hornet. Though the flight was otherwise uneventful,
Webb was stripped of flight status and reassigned to Qatar. Looks like
lean times for Mavericks everywhere.

http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safet...perhornet.html


If this is what Webb said:

In regard to his unauthorized flyby, Webb wrote, "No respected
fighter pilot worth his salt can look me in the eye and tell me
they've never done the exact same thing."

Webb concluded that he was "not apologetic for what I did, and if
given the chance, I'd do the same thing again….

He was clearly a hazard in the sky, and grounding him was appropriate.


http://www.sptimes.com/2003/01/25/Ta..._F_16_pi.shtml

Parker's reckless and careless operation, on the other hand, resulted
in the destruction of a ~$30,000,000.00 airplane and the death of a
fellow airman, but General Rosa found a verbal reprimand appropriate.
Parker lost neither rank nor pay for the death and destruction he
caused.

Perhaps Navy justice is more just than Air Force justice.

"FatKat" wrote in message
oups.com...

Larry Dighera wrote:
On 12 Jul 2006 14:44:01 -0700, "Gordon" wrote in
. com::

Real fighter pilots have little in common with 'Maverick'; I remember
sitting in that movie with about a dozen other Navy flyers and the
concensus was that any "****BIRD" like him would be grounded and
drummed out.

If the verbal reprimand Lt. Conl. Parker received as a result of
leading his wingman into a fatal collision with a Cessna 172 over
Florida on November 16, 2000 is indicative of how the military
disciplines a pilot who entered congested Class B and C terminal
airspace at ~500 knots without the benefit of the required ATC
clearance, I'm unconvinced your statement above is accurate.

Hardly an adequate description of the outcome and the initial
assessment. It appears that there was at least an issue as to how much
blame can be shouldered by Parker himself. The article below suggests
that there was a confusion of procedures as to the use of transponders
by multiple formations. At the very least the report also cited ATC.
Was this a case of bad decisionmaking? For the sake of argument yes -
but not every bad decision elevates the one who makes it to the level
of Tom Cruise. This was hardly hot-dogging; on the other hand, there
is the case of Richard Webb, who made a high-speed pass of San Luis
Obispo in a Super Hornet. Though the flight was otherwise uneventful,
Webb was stripped of flight status and reassigned to Qatar. Looks like
lean times for Mavericks everywhere.

Parker was guilty of murder the same as if he held a gun the head of the 172
pilot and pulled the trigger. He broke nearly every rule in the book and
got away with murder. The US military is the big loser as it is hard to
respect an organization that condones such actions and does nothing to
punish the guilty.

588 wrote:
You have, however, made of yourself a flaming example of
Internet-enabled stupidity. I'd vote Republican just for the pleasure of
seeing more of your kind go apoplectic.


I am a republican, too (I have for years called myself an Arlen Specter
type republican...one who is a little too liberal, though, for the
sheep). I just don't blindly follow a party line. Our current pres is
an embarrassment.

Robert M. Gary wrote:

Being the CO's son I got to spent a lot of time sitting in the squadron
room and road out the Kitty Hawk on a few Tiger cruises. Fighter pilots
today are probably more bookish than in years past. Less seat of the
paints flying. I don't get the impression that Vietnam era was quite
that way.

-Robert

During my last couple of years of flying I was IP for the IP course at
Fighter-Lead-In at Holloman. I recalled one afternoon when I pulled
Sqdn duty officer until closing. After last launches, I went down and
sat at the bar in the sqdn lounge. Sipped on a beer and shortly five
guys in flight suits came in and sat down in easy chairs and sofa
behind me. I listened for maybe twenty minutes, then turned and said,
"Who are you guys?"

"We're in the new IP class. We finished academics and thought we'd come
over and see what the flying squadron looked like."

"Impossible," I said. "IP students are all fighter pilots with minimum
four years in fighters and qualified four-ship flight leads. I've
listened to you guys talking about investments, annuities and
debentures for the last twenty minutes without a single comment on the
basics of fighter pilot discussion--i.e. flying, fighting and
fornicating. You can't be the new class..."

Unfortunately they were. And that is representative of the modern
breed.

Dave Stadt wrote:

Parker was guilty of murder the same as if he held a gun the head of the 172
pilot and pulled the trigger. He broke nearly every rule in the book and
got away with murder. The US military is the big loser as it is hard to
respect an organization that condones such actions and does nothing to
punish the guilty.

You might want to research the elements of "murder" before conducting
much more slander. You might also want to spend some time in a
single-seat, single-engine aircraft making decisions at the speed
required by the job on a daily basis.

Someone died and that is very, repeat very, unfortunate. But, with the
proliferation of restrictions on airspace and the continual
restrictions on military training it is increasingly more difficult to
avoid offending some petty bureaucrat or noise sensitive home-owner
while conducting training. No one needs to die and you can take to the
bank that no one in the military ever intends to participate in a
mid-air.

If you've read all of the testimony and understand all of the factors
involved, you are entitled to an opinion, but keep in mind that
opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they all stink.

Ed Rasimus wrote:

You might want to research the elements of "murder" before conducting
much more slander.
snip

Wouldn't the typed word be considered libel, assuming, of course, that
there were provable damages to the receiver's reputation?

If you've read all of the testimony and understand all of the factors
involved, you are entitled to an opinion, but keep in mind that
opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they all stink.

I'd be interested in your opinion of that particular mid-air.

--
Peter

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
oups.com...

Dave Stadt wrote:

Parker was guilty of murder the same as if he held a gun the head of the
172
pilot and pulled the trigger. He broke nearly every rule in the book and
got away with murder. The US military is the big loser as it is hard to
respect an organization that condones such actions and does nothing to
punish the guilty.

You might want to research the elements of "murder" before conducting
much more slander. You might also want to spend some time in a
single-seat, single-engine aircraft making decisions at the speed
required by the job on a daily basis.

Someone died and that is very, repeat very, unfortunate. But, with the
proliferation of restrictions on airspace and the continual
restrictions on military training it is increasingly more difficult to
avoid offending some petty bureaucrat or noise sensitive home-owner
while conducting training. No one needs to die and you can take to the
bank that no one in the military ever intends to participate in a
mid-air.

If you've read all of the testimony and understand all of the factors
involved, you are entitled to an opinion, but keep in mind that
opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they all stink.

I read it numerous times and stand by my decisioon. Any civilian criminal
court would have tried the case as such.

On 13 Jul 2006 13:33:14 -0700, "Ed Rasimus"
wrote in .com::


Dave Stadt wrote:

Parker was guilty of murder the same as if he held a gun the head of the 172
pilot and pulled the trigger. He broke nearly every rule in the book and
got away with murder. The US military is the big loser as it is hard to
respect an organization that condones such actions and does nothing to
punish the guilty.

You might want to research the elements of "murder" before conducting
much more slander.

In the state of Florida, the crime of Third Degree Murder is what
would be called Manslaughter in other jurisdictions.

You might also want to spend some time in a
single-seat, single-engine aircraft making decisions at the speed
required by the job on a daily basis.

If you ever descend to descend into congested terminal airspace at
~500 knots without the required ATC clearance, you have taken
responsibility for the consequences of that violation of regulations,
and should suffer the consequences of your imprudent act.
Unfortunately, the USAF found justice would be served with a verbal
reprimand, no loss of pay or rank, nor incarceration nor restitution
to the widow and family, nor for the destroyed $30,000,000.00 F-15.
That slap on the wrist is so disproportionate to the carnage and
destruction Parker caused, as to outrageously offend any thinking
person's sense of justice.

Someone died and that is very, repeat very, unfortunate. But, with the
proliferation of restrictions on airspace and the continual
restrictions on military training it is increasingly more difficult to
avoid offending some petty bureaucrat or noise sensitive home-owner
while conducting training.

I hope I'm not hearing you say the military has it rough, so expect to
see the incompetence of cowboy fighter pilots go unpunished even when
civilian fatalities are involved.

No one needs to die and you can take to the
bank that no one in the military ever intends to participate in a
mid-air.

What would you expect the outcome to be of entering congested terminal
airspace at ~500 knots without talking to Air Traffic Control?

If you've read all of the testimony and understand all of the factors
involved, you are entitled to an opinion, but keep in mind that
opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they all stink.

Not nearly as much as the injustice perpetrated by Gen. Rosa in
finding a verbal reprimand appropriate punishment for Parker's
infamous acts.

Ed Rasimus wrote:
You might want to research the elements of "murder" before conducting
much more slander.

Larry Dighera wrote:
In the state of Florida, the crime of Third Degree Murder is what
would be called Manslaughter in other jurisdictions.

You might also want to spend some time in a
single-seat, single-engine aircraft making decisions at the speed
required by the job on a daily basis.

If you ever (int?)end to descend into congested terminal airspace at
~500 knots without the required ATC clearance, you have taken
responsibility for the consequences of that violation of regulations,
and should suffer the consequences of your imprudent act.

Just for the hell of it, do you know if he knew that he was entering
terminal airspace? I'm not trying to throw out red herrings, I
honestly don't recall, but I think not.


If my edit of your post (descend to -- intend to) is not what you
meant to say, my apologies!



Jeff
Saying "Guns kill people" is like saying "Spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat."

Jeff Crowell wrote:


Jeff
Saying "Guns kill people" is like saying "Spoons made Rosie O'Donnell
fat."


Guns don't kill people, husbands who come home early kill people.




--

Cheers

Dave Kearton