Glider Crash - Minden?

The only significant reason to oppose such a proposal are the costs
involved. What is really needed is a concerted effort to come up with a
truely low cost transponder or ADS-B transmitter (~$200), so that it becomes
a no brainer to carry one on everything that flies.

Mike Schumann

"Derek Copeland" wrote in
message ...
OK, OK. So the Jocks have a couple of wave windows
that can be activated in advance by a telephone call
in accordance with a local agreement. We have nothing
like that in Southern England!

I do hope you are not in favour of mandatory Mode S
Transponders in all aircraft (includes gliders, hang
gliders, paragliders and balloons).

Derek Copeland



At 09:12 06 September 2006, Rory O'Conor wrote:
Oh really?

Please read
http://www.scottishglidingcentre.co....space%20MoU%20
BGA%20
2005%20lores.pdf
And then re-comment.

Rory

------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Mode S Transponders....
Author: Derek Copeland
Date/Time: 17:20 05 September 2006
------------------------------------------------------------
In the UK we are not allowed to fly Gliders in Class
A or Airways, full
stop, period!

Mike Schumann wrote:
The only significant reason to oppose such a proposal are the costs
involved. What is really needed is a concerted effort to come up with a
truely low cost transponder or ADS-B transmitter (~$200), so that it becomes
a no brainer to carry one on everything that flies.

Not quite. It also needs to:
- contain the equivalent of a PCAS receiver
- fit a single panel position (preferably 57mm like the Filser
and Microair mode-S transponders do)

In addition is should probably:
- be light (under 900 grams)
- have a low power requirement, ideally no more than a glider radio
but certainly under 600 mA average


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

There are other issues at stake. These include the
possibility of airspace charging, the cost of an approved
installation now that EASA has so kindly taken us under
its control and the risk of being fined or grounded
should we inadvertantly infringe controlled airspace
even if only by a few metres.

Will we be breaking the law if we forget to turn the
transponders on, or if they or the batteries fail in
flight? One of the main characteristics of our current
New Labour Government is the number of usually stupid
new laws they have introduced that it is now possible
to fall foul of!

As to the safety issue, the Air Traffic Controllers
at our local airport have already admitted that they
will almost certainly filter out our returns to reduce
clutter on their radar screens! The only possible gains
we get from all this cost and hassle are slightly reduced
risks of being knocked out of the sky by a TCAS/ACAS
equipped airliners or UAVs. As there has never been
such a collision in the UK, is a reduction of an almost
zero risk really that worthwhile? Mode S does nothing
to reduce the much more probable risk of colliding
with another glider or light aircraft!

Derek Copeland

At 13:12 06 September 2006, Mike Schumann wrote:
The only significant reason to oppose such a proposal
are the costs
involved. What is really needed is a concerted effort
to come up with a
truely low cost transponder or ADS-B transmitter (~$200),
so that it becomes
a no brainer to carry one on everything that flies.

Mike Schumann

'Derek Copeland' wrote in
message ...
OK, OK. So the Jocks have a couple of wave windows
that can be activated in advance by a telephone call
in accordance with a local agreement. We have nothing
like that in Southern England!

I do hope you are not in favour of mandatory Mode
S
Transponders in all aircraft (includes gliders, hang
gliders, paragliders and balloons).

Derek Copeland



At 09:12 06 September 2006, Rory O'Conor wrote:
Oh really?

Please read
http://www.scottishglidingcentre.co....space%20MoU%20

BGA%20
2005%20lores.pdf
And then re-comment.

Rory

------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Mode S Transponders....
Author: Derek Copeland
Date/Time: 17:20 05 September 2006
------------------------------------------------------------
In the UK we are not allowed to fly Gliders in Class
A or Airways, full
stop, period!

Pity that Derek does not appear to have read the references provided by
Rory. The items on the SGU website relate to the Scottish TMA around
Edinburgh and a local agreement between the SGU and NATS Edinburgh that
permits easier access to the South though defined routes, an agreement
between the BGA, SGU and Scottish Air Traffic relating to crossing the
airwayS viz P600 andB226 subject to prior notification and radio calls, and
an agreement between the BGA, SGU and the Scottish Control centre that
permits gliders from Portmoak access to the Northern part of the Scottish
TMA and southern part of P600 at weekends. No mention of the Scottish Wave
boxes in any of these.

To clarify the points raised by Rory O’ Conor and John
Smith

Gliders in the UK are not generally allowed to fly
in IFR only airspace, such as Class A and airways.
However some gliding clubs who are situated in or
close to Class A or Class D airspace (e.g. Portmoak
and Dunstable) have local letters of agreements that
allow some access to controlled airspace by their members
under defined conditions. These agreements do not apply
to glider pilots from other clubs who happen to be
transiting the area and can be withdrawn at any time,
so they are not exactly rights but are better than
nothing. There are also some wave soaring boxes that
can be opened by an advance telephone call and then
a radio request in flight.

When I first started flying X-country, you were allowed
to cross Airways, provided you crossed them approximately
at right angles in VMC and kept a good lookout. This
right was removed sometime in the 1990’s when a wave
soaring glider got a bit too close to an airliner somewhere
over South Wales.

Derek Copeland


At 16:48 06 September 2006, John Smith wrote:
Pity that Derek does not appear to have read the references
provided by
Rory. The items on the SGU website relate to the Scottish
TMA around
Edinburgh and a local agreement between the SGU and
NATS Edinburgh that
permits easier access to the South though defined routes,
an agreement
between the BGA, SGU and Scottish Air Traffic relating
to crossing the
airwayS viz P600 andB226 subject to prior notification
and radio calls, and
an agreement between the BGA, SGU and the Scottish
Control centre that
permits gliders from Portmoak access to the Northern
part of the Scottish
TMA and southern part of P600 at weekends. No mention
of the Scottish Wave
boxes in any of these.

At 14:30 07 September 2006, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
'kirk.stant' wrote in message
oups.com...

Plus, 20 seconds is an eternity when it comes to getting
out of the
way.

I asked this question several times, and never saw
a convincing answer:
exactly how do you use even the 20 seconds if you
have them to avoid
something coming at you at 300 (or, it was suggested,
possibly much more)
knots?

Stop turning and stick the nose down steeply at the
same time.

That's about the quickest way to exit a given volume
of air that I can
think of if you're starting from a low airspeed. I'll
be interested to
hear of anything that would be faster and/or of something
what would
work if you're too low to dive away from the threat.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |


Kirk,

I agree with Martin, but for the thermalling case,
I'd amend that to put the top rudder on the floor and
the stick in the opposite corner, at least at first.
You'll lose hundreds of feet in 10 seconds, and not
gain a ridiculous amount of airspeed.

If you're cruising fast between thermals, it may work
better to put the stick in your lap, which would zoom
you at least a couple hundred feet. (don't ask me
how I know this.)

In either case, if you were really on a collision course
before, that will get you out of the way.

Regarding Martin's case of being too low, that would
imply that you're on the ridge, on tow, or on final
approach. If the ridge, it's almost certainly another
glider, so follow the rule about whoever can turn right
away from the ridge does that. If it turns out that
the other guy has the burden of turning, but he doesn't
see you, it seems to me that it's always possible to
descend a few feet, wings level, which is enough to
avoid the collision. If that isn't possible, you're
flying too damn close to the ridge.

On final, the interfering traffic is probably an airplane
taking off, maybe dive to duck under him, then use
the speed to get to a safe landing after the offending
plane passes over. On tow, radio call to warn the
tow pilot, release, treat it like a rope break. That's
the toughest one.

Ed

At 14:30 07 September 2006, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
'kirk.stant' wrote in message
oups.com...

Plus, 20 seconds is an eternity when it comes to getting
out of the
way.

I asked this question several times, and never saw
a convincing answer:
exactly how do you use even the 20 seconds if you
have them to avoid
something coming at you at 300 (or, it was suggested,
possibly much more)
knots?

Stop turning and stick the nose down steeply at the
same time.

That's about the quickest way to exit a given volume
of air that I can
think of if you're starting from a low airspeed. I'll
be interested to
hear of anything that would be faster and/or of something
what would
work if you're too low to dive away from the threat.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |


Kirk,

I agree with Martin, but for the thermalling case,
I'd amend that to put the top rudder on the floor and
the stick in the opposite corner, at least at first.
You'll lose hundreds of feet in 10 seconds, and not
gain a ridiculous amount of airspeed.

If you're cruising fast between thermals, it may work
better to put the stick in your lap, which would zoom
you at least a couple hundred feet. (don't ask me
how I know this.)

In either case, if you were really on a collision course
before, that will get you out of the way.

Regarding Martin's case of being too low, that would
imply that you're on the ridge, on tow, or on final
approach. If the ridge, it's almost certainly another
glider, so follow the rule about whoever can turn right
away from the ridge does that. If it turns out that
the other guy has the burden of turning, but he doesn't
see you, it seems to me that it's always possible to
descend a few feet, wings level, which is enough to
avoid the collision. If that isn't possible, you're
flying too damn close to the ridge.

On final, the interfering traffic is probably an airplane
taking off, maybe dive to duck under him, then use
the speed to get to a safe landing after the offending
plane passes over. On tow, radio call to warn the
tow pilot, release, treat it like a rope break. That's
the toughest one.

Ed

Edward Winchester wrote:

I agree with Martin, but for the thermalling case,
I'd amend that to put the top rudder on the floor and
the stick in the opposite corner, at least at first.
You'll lose hundreds of feet in 10 seconds, and not
gain a ridiculous amount of airspeed.

I like that! Must add it to my mental store and/or try it with plenty
of height and an empty sky. I've had a very similar maneuver demoed in a
Puchacz but don't know what my Libelle would do.

If you're cruising fast between thermals, it may work
better to put the stick in your lap, which would zoom
you at least a couple hundred feet. (don't ask me
how I know this.)

That makes sense.

Regarding Martin's case of being too low, that would
imply that you're on the ridge, on tow, or on final
approach.

I was thinking more of being nearer circuit height, maybe working on a
low save, but anyway the sort of situation were a loss of a few hundred
feet would be at best put you in a situation you wouldn't choose to be
in: if you can no longer reach a sensible landing area you may not be
all that much better off despite having avoided the collision.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Martin Gregorie wrote:
Edward Winchester wrote:

I agree with Martin, but for the thermalling case,
I'd amend that to put the top rudder on the floor and
the stick in the opposite corner, at least at first.
You'll lose hundreds of feet in 10 seconds, and not
gain a ridiculous amount of airspeed.
I like that! Must add it to my mental store and/or try it with plenty
of height and an empty sky. I've had a very similar maneuver demoed in a
Puchacz but don't know what my Libelle would do.

Following up on that:

Yesterday I tried that in both the Puchacz and then in my Std. Libelle
and the answer as to whether its a good idea is "it depends".

In either gliders the descent rate didn't feel particularly rapid. I had
a logger running in the Libelle, which showed the descent rate to be
somewhere around 1000 ft/min., or 166 ft in 10 seconds - respectable
though hardly "hundreds of feet in 10 seconds".

Its easily controlled in the Puchacz, thanks to its large side area and
huge rudder: exit speed was essentially the same as entry speed and the
flight path during the descent was a gentle curve toward the side with
the canopy on it.

The Libelle is a different case. It hasn't enough side area or rudder
power to control your speed unless you also have some back stick and
that makes your descent path into a spiral rather than a gentle curve.
Although its a fairly controllable descent mode I don't think I'd use it
again in a Libelle.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

At 14:30 07 September 2006, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
'kirk.stant' wrote in message
oups.com...

Plus, 20 seconds is an eternity when it comes to getting
out of the
way.

I asked this question several times, and never saw
a convincing answer:
exactly how do you use even the 20 seconds if you
have them to avoid
something coming at you at 300 (or, it was suggested,
possibly much more)
knots?

Stop turning and stick the nose down steeply at the
same time.

That's about the quickest way to exit a given volume
of air that I can
think of if you're starting from a low airspeed. I'll
be interested to
hear of anything that would be faster and/or of something
what would
work if you're too low to dive away from the threat.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |


Kirk,

I agree with Martin, but for the thermalling case,
I'd amend that to put the top rudder on the floor and
the stick in the opposite corner, at least at first.
You'll lose hundreds of feet in 10 seconds, and not
gain a ridiculous amount of airspeed.

If you're cruising fast between thermals, it may work
better to put the stick in your lap, which would zoom
you at least a couple hundred feet. (don't ask me
how I know this.)

In either case, if you were really on a collision course
before, that will get you out of the way.

Regarding Martin's case of being too low, that would
imply that you're on the ridge, on tow, or on final
approach. If the ridge, it's almost certainly another
glider, so follow the rule about whoever can turn right
away from the ridge does that. If it turns out that
the other guy has the burden of turning, but he doesn't
see you, it seems to me that it's always possible to
descend a few feet, wings level, which is enough to
avoid the collision. If that isn't possible, you're
flying too damn close to the ridge.

On final, the interfering traffic is probably an airplane
taking off, maybe dive to duck under him, then use
the speed to get to a safe landing after the offending
plane passes over. On tow, radio call to warn the
tow pilot, release, treat it like a rope break. That's
the toughest one.

Ed