No more "Left Downwind"?

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:


I'm with you. In fact, I start and finish my transmission with the
airport name just because I know how *I* am with radio transmissions. I
tend to float along not paying real attention and then it's "where did he
say he was?". So I'll transmit "Rock Hill traffic, Cessna 32Q on left
downwind for runway zero two, Rock Hill." It only takes a split second
more but I figure it helps, not hurts.

Hear, hear!


--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

I'm with you. In fact, I start and finish my transmission with the
airport name just because I know how *I* am with radio transmissions. I
tend to float along not paying real attention and then it's "where did he
say he was?". So I'll transmit "Rock Hill traffic, Cessna 32Q on left
downwind for runway zero two, Rock Hill." It only takes a split second
more but I figure it helps, not hurts.

Hear, hear!

That's not just common sense -- it's also the FAA-approved phraseology.
It drives me nuts when people drop the last mention of their
location, cuz -- like you -- I often don't catch the first couple of
words of their transmission.

And, of course, there are those who start talking BEFORE they push the
button, and inadvertently cut off their first few syllables -- so the
final mention of their whereabouts is often their ONLY mention of their
whereabouts.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm with you. In fact, I start and finish my transmission with the
airport name just because I know how *I* am with radio transmissions.
I
tend to float along not paying real attention and then it's "where did
he
say he was?". So I'll transmit "Rock Hill traffic, Cessna 32Q on left
downwind for runway zero two, Rock Hill." It only takes a split
second
more but I figure it helps, not hurts.

Hear, hear!

That's not just common sense -- it's also the FAA-approved phraseology.
It drives me nuts when people drop the last mention of their
location, cuz -- like you -- I often don't catch the first couple of
words of their transmission.

And, of course, there are those who start talking BEFORE they push the
button, and inadvertently cut off their first few syllables -- so the
final mention of their whereabouts is often their ONLY mention of their
whereabouts.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Very true and transmissions do get "stepped on", so it can't hurt to be
doubly sure.

On 2 Sep 2006 06:39:04 -0700, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
And, of course, there are those who start talking BEFORE they push the
button, and inadvertently cut off their first few syllables -- so the
final mention of their whereabouts is often their ONLY mention of their
whereabouts.

But then they also unkey the mic before completing the transmission,
thus cutting off the airport name also...

Jay Honeck wrote:

...
In his opinion (and, apparently, the FAA's), saying "left downwind" is
redundant, since everyone should know that the pattern is left (or
right, if appropriate) hand traffic.
...
What do you guys think?

I remember having had a somewhat related discussion with some
CAP folks concerning operations in non-controlled airfields. Now
reading your piece, I went back to the regs just to make sure I
was not imagining things. The one that talks about operating on
or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace, 14 CFR 91.126,
specifies, in its subparagraph (b) the direction of turns. Ok, it
seems clear enough, one should turn left unless indicated otherwise.

However, the subparagraph (a), as a general introduction, has
the following magic words in it: "Unless otherwise authorized
or required..." -- what does it mean exactly? Notice that
unlike other parts of this chapter which use a similar wording,
it does NOT say 'unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC',
i.e., it does not mention ATC until subparagraph (d).

My interpretation -- which might very well be mistaken, please
correct me -- is that if someone has a compelling reason to do
something different, whatever it might be, it is his or her call.
Am I completely off here? seriously?

And that's in a perfect world, where everybody knows exactly where
they are, and announce it accurately, which is, as anyone who
has operated in a reasonably busy uncontrolled airfield would know,
a bit over optimistic. And you get people who take off in one
direction and land in another, folks coming in from straight-in
many miles away on an IFR approach, etc. pretty much anything goes,
it can be a lot of fun actually.

I other words, I agree with you that every bit helps and that
announcing what you are doing is the sane thing to do (when possible),
even by adding a bit of redundency just to be sure; besides I can't
see how skipping *one* monosyllabic word is not going to reduce the
radio chatter by much.

--Sylvain

I believe it could be "authorized or required..." by entities other than
ATC, such as the airport operator. My understanding is that this is
sometimes done to avoid noise-sensitive areas...




"Sylvain" wrote in message
t...
Jay Honeck wrote:

...
In his opinion (and, apparently, the FAA's), saying "left downwind" is
redundant, since everyone should know that the pattern is left (or
right, if appropriate) hand traffic.
...
What do you guys think?

I remember having had a somewhat related discussion with some
CAP folks concerning operations in non-controlled airfields. Now
reading your piece, I went back to the regs just to make sure I
was not imagining things. The one that talks about operating on
or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace, 14 CFR 91.126,
specifies, in its subparagraph (b) the direction of turns. Ok, it
seems clear enough, one should turn left unless indicated otherwise.

However, the subparagraph (a), as a general introduction, has
the following magic words in it: "Unless otherwise authorized
or required..." -- what does it mean exactly? Notice that
unlike other parts of this chapter which use a similar wording,
it does NOT say 'unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC',
i.e., it does not mention ATC until subparagraph (d).

My interpretation -- which might very well be mistaken, please
correct me -- is that if someone has a compelling reason to do
something different, whatever it might be, it is his or her call.
Am I completely off here? seriously?

And that's in a perfect world, where everybody knows exactly where
they are, and announce it accurately, which is, as anyone who
has operated in a reasonably busy uncontrolled airfield would know,
a bit over optimistic. And you get people who take off in one
direction and land in another, folks coming in from straight-in
many miles away on an IFR approach, etc. pretty much anything goes,
it can be a lot of fun actually.

I other words, I agree with you that every bit helps and that
announcing what you are doing is the sane thing to do (when possible),
even by adding a bit of redundency just to be sure; besides I can't
see how skipping *one* monosyllabic word is not going to reduce the
radio chatter by much.

--Sylvain

Sylvain wrote in
t:

Jay Honeck wrote:

...
In his opinion (and, apparently, the FAA's), saying "left downwind" is
redundant, since everyone should know that the pattern is left (or
right, if appropriate) hand traffic.
...
What do you guys think?

I remember having had a somewhat related discussion with some
CAP folks concerning operations in non-controlled airfields. Now
reading your piece, I went back to the regs just to make sure I
was not imagining things. The one that talks about operating on
or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace, 14 CFR 91.126,
specifies, in its subparagraph (b) the direction of turns. Ok, it
seems clear enough, one should turn left unless indicated otherwise.

However, the subparagraph (a), as a general introduction, has
the following magic words in it: "Unless otherwise authorized
or required..." -- what does it mean exactly? Notice that
unlike other parts of this chapter which use a similar wording,
it does NOT say 'unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC',
i.e., it does not mention ATC until subparagraph (d).

My interpretation -- which might very well be mistaken, please
correct me -- is that if someone has a compelling reason to do
something different, whatever it might be, it is his or her call.
Am I completely off here? seriously?



--Sylvain

I suspect the "unless otherwise authorized or required" refers to
situations where IFR requires one thing while VFR requires the other. Take
a look at Watsonville (WVI). All runways are left hand traffic. If you
are on the VOR/DME GPS A approach, you must circle to land and the approach
chart states "Circling not authorized west of Rwy 2-20." VFR to Rwy 2 is
left hand traffic, while an IFR approach circle-to-land on Rwy 2 will be
right hand traffic.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

Jay Honeck wrote:


What do you guys think?

I agree with the FAA. I've never added the "left" or "right" into
my radio calls *unless* I am entering the pattern in a non-standard
way. It really is redundant as according to FARs you are supposed to
be familiar with runway information at the destination airport in
advance of your flight.

kontiki wrote:
Jay Honeck wrote:


What do you guys think?

I agree with the FAA. I've never added the "left" or "right" into
my radio calls *unless* I am entering the pattern in a non-standard
way. It really is redundant as according to FARs you are supposed to
be familiar with runway information at the destination airport in
advance of your flight.


So you'd rather assume everyone is familiar instead of including ONE
extra word and making sure? Very, very dangerous.

Emily wrote:

So you'd rather assume everyone is familiar instead of including ONE
extra word and making sure? Very, very dangerous.

Oh please... because someone doesn't say "left" before 'downwind' the
danger level drastically increases? I don't think think so. If you want
to say it fine but I do not think its necessary most of the time.

That's just my $.02