Important message for SSA members

I accessed the letter directly on the SSA website without the need of a user
name or password. Given the ease of access, I don't think there was
anything confidential, per se.


"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
Because the letter was a private one to members only
and the poster violated that confidentiality, evidently
without a clue to what he was doing.

Jim Vincent wrote:
I accessed the letter directly on the SSA website without the need of a user
name or password. Given the ease of access, I don't think there was
anything confidential, per se.

You must have had a cookie set. If I logout, then click on that link,
I'm asked to login.

Joe in Georgia wrote "I doubt pursuits like
Badge / Record Claims, Sporting code changes, sailplane handicaps,
conventions, or contest management would be of any interest to them,
and that is our bread and butter."

That MAY BE BREAD AND BUTTER to the contest pilot set, but it is of absolutly no interest to a significant number of recreational pilots who soar just to be flying and who have no interest whatsoever in contests,badges etc. A great deal of SSA resources are spent each month on a glossy magazine which is devoted in large part ( altho I do acknowledge the recent attempts to broaden its scope) to contests and to the "elite " of the sport. I wonder just how many of the 16,000 members actually care about the contest circuit.

It is my opinion that the focus on contests as a measure of whether or not someone is having fun has not only lef to a split in the ranks of the SSA, but has also had a very bad impact on the business of building gliders suitable for the general flying population. I saw this same thing 30 years ago in ocean sailboat racing. The concept of daysailing, cruising and just having a good time was replaced by an emphasis on competition. From the individual yatch club level to the world cup. Boats got much faster AND way more expensive. They became more fragile and were outdated after a couple of seasons.
I believe that the glorification of competition is OK and that it satisfies the ego needs of a significant portion of the pilots who own sailplanes. HOWEVER to say that it is the bread and butter of the SSA is just plain wrong.

we wonder why kids are not coming into a sport that takes a $100,000 hot rod to be competitive. The attitude that if you don't have the latest glass ship that dominated the nationals last month you are somhow a lesser pilot is fostered by this bread and butter attitude. What ever happened to just jumping in a sailplane and losing oneself in the sky for several hours of solitude? Whatever happened to the concept of just trying to improve or develop skills just for personal satisfaction? These concepts are the bread and butter of soaring.
Not only have the finances of SSA been mismanaged, but i believe that the society has become irrevelant to a significant portion of its recreational for fun pilots.
5bg


wrote in message ups.com...
Well,
We have to consider really what SSA does for us- everyone mentions
the big stuff like plane insurance and lobbying, and the clout of AOPA
or EAA would be good there. I just think that these organizations
already have their own inertia to deal with. I doubt pursuits like
Badge / Record Claims, Sporting code changes, sailplane handicaps,
conventions, or contest management would be of any interest to them,
and that is our bread and butter.
I have been thru some corporate mergers and the sum is rarely as
effective as the parts were beforehand. Technically, it seems marrying
these groups would create something better- unfortunately, we are
dealing with folks that can't even get our books straight. Could we
trust them to keep SSA's identity and unique needs seperate and
healthy? I doubt it.
We already have an organization that does this other stuff fairly
well. We need to change the organization to make it more accountable
and less incestuous. Smaller can be better, it just has to be done
right. There is enough in SSA to save, and we don't have to do it all
tomorrow.

Just curious- How long have our dues been 55 clams? Might be time for
Mo' Money anyway. For some reason we expect to get out of a money jam
without raising taxes. Sometimes ya gotta do it.

Joe in Georgia USA
CN Open Cirrus #105


wrote:
If SSA were to merge with a larger organization, EAA would be better
suited than AOPA. The EAA already has a number of Divisions &
Affiliates under its umbrella, including:

International Aerobatic Club
http://www.iac.org/

Vintage Aircraft Association
http://www.vintageaircraft.org/

War Birds of America
http://www.warbirds-eaa.org/

National Association of Flight Instructors
http://www.nafinet.org/

EAA Ultralights
http://www.eaa.org/ultralights/index.html

Sport Pilot and Light Sport Aircraft Assoc.
http://www.sportpilot.org/

Young Eagles
http://www.youngeagles.org/

and there are more....... Each of these groups has its own magazine
and identity.

EAA promotes and fully supports each and every one of these
organizations. Makes sense that a soaring division of EAA would fit
nicely with these other groups.

In my opinion, SSA is just too small to efficiently manage itself
logistically and financially.

Jon B.
GA



Stan - VA wrote:
I think it is pretty clear that if the SSA survives this latest bout of
mismanagment that our dues will mainly go to debt payment, and not to
services for members.

Several of us at our club have considered the pros and cons of the AOPA
idea. It definitely is worth discussing.

The AOPA has some real lobbying power. If the SSA ever had any, it
won't now. The amount of $ SSA had, has, or will have to spend on
lobbying efforts probably won't even open the door for us with anyone
in Washington. AOPA's clout is another matter.

I don't know that the AOPA would be interested, but 16,000 pilots would
be a healthy addition to their membership, if that is what the SSA
membership is. Of course, some SSA are already AOPA members.

A couple of pages monthly in the AOPA magizine would probably do
soaring a world of good. Most of the potential pilots for our sport
are already power pilots.

AIG, the insurer who underwrites the policies that come from
Costello's, already has a relationship with the AOPA. Probably
Costello's has a relationship with the AOPA too. Hopefully, we
maintain our insurance in its present form.

Let's face the reality of the situation. We may soon have no national
soaring umbrella organization. We will need to deal with that in some
fashion. Better to think about the alternatives now.

Stan Scott - VA

Tony Verhulst wrote:
Nyal Williams wrote:
We have always wanted to be more like the BGA. Do you
believe that, comprising 1% of the pilot population,
we would receive any notice inside AOPA? Maybe one
page near the back of the magazine -- occasionally.

Would we receive any notice inside AOPA? No! Not even inside EAA nor
even NAFI. Case in point, I used to be a NAFI (National Association of
Flight Instructors) member. In one of their monthly (mailed) newsletters
(2002), they warned us that the PTS (practical Test Standard)was
changing and to make sure that we trained our students to the new
standards. When I researched the matter I discovered that ONLY the
*airplane* PTS was changing - not glider, not helicopter, ... you get
the picture. I wrote a nice letter to the organization president and
editor explaining the situation and requested a public clarification. I
got nowhere - not even a clarification in their online newsletter which
would have cost them nothing to distribute. After several polite email
exchanges, I realized that unless you were an airplane instructor you
were nothing and that there was no point in me being a member. I
resigned in protest.

Expect similar treatment if we become part of AOPA.

Tony V. CFIG
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

"5-BG" 5-bghatesspam @ fake.com wrote in message
...
Joe in Georgia wrote "I doubt pursuits like
Badge / Record Claims, Sporting code changes, sailplane handicaps,
conventions, or contest management would be of any interest to them,
and that is our bread and butter."

That MAY BE BREAD AND BUTTER to the contest pilot set, but it is of
absolutly no interest to a significant number of recreational pilots who
soar just to be flying and who have no interest whatsoever in
contests,badges etc. A great deal of SSA resources are spent each month on a
glossy magazine which is devoted in large part ( altho I do acknowledge the
recent attempts to broaden its scope) to contests and to the "elite " of the
sport. I wonder just how many of the 16,000 members actually care about the
contest circuit.

It is my opinion that the focus on contests as a measure of whether or not
someone is having fun has not only lef to a split in the ranks of the SSA,
but has also had a very bad impact on the business of building gliders
suitable for the general flying population. I saw this same thing 30 years
ago in ocean sailboat racing. The concept of daysailing, cruising and just
having a good time was replaced by an emphasis on competition. From the
individual yatch club level to the world cup. Boats got much faster AND way
more expensive. They became more fragile and were outdated after a couple of
seasons.
I believe that the glorification of competition is OK and that it satisfies
the ego needs of a significant portion of the pilots who own sailplanes.
HOWEVER to say that it is the bread and butter of the SSA is just plain
wrong.

we wonder why kids are not coming into a sport that takes a $100,000 hot
rod to be competitive. The attitude that if you don't have the latest
glass ship that dominated the nationals last month you are somhow a lesser
pilot is fostered by this bread and butter attitude. What ever happened to
just jumping in a sailplane and losing oneself in the sky for several hours
of solitude? Whatever happened to the concept of just trying to improve or
develop skills just for personal satisfaction? These concepts are the bread
and butter of soaring.
Not only have the finances of SSA been mismanaged, but i believe that the
society has become irrevelant to a significant portion of its recreational
for fun pilots.
5bg


This is bulls**t - give it a rest. I've heard it since I started flying
gliders in 1960. It seems to come from people who don't care to make an
effort to be good enough pilots to compete and whose egos can't stand
hearing about those who can and do. All good pilots want to get better and
reading about the accomplishments or others is an excellent incentive.

It's like saying that kids who play ball don't care about the World Cup.
Or the readers of Road & Track don't care about auto racing's Grand Prix
Circuits. Most people who fly gliders want to read about competition
whether it be just badges or the new Grand Prix Racing curcuit. This is one
of the things the SSA has always done right.

Bill Daniels

How about a survey to find out? If the SSA survives this mess I am sure
there will be plenty of soul searching to try to figure out where we
want to go from here and how it can be done. The key for me would be to
appeal to both sides of the fence (and anybody sitting on it ;-), the
competitive types and the recreational types. I am sure it can be done,
we would just have to find out what activity/information/service would
really make a difference for each group of stakeholders (and I am not
talking group insurance here). Once you have some more detailed
information to work with I am sure that looking at the activities of
other large/very active soaring organisation can provide us with plenty
of ideas of how we could make most (more) members happy(er). You can't
make everybody happy but I am sure more can be done.

Markus

Interesting results. I deleted the cookie and reentered the site. NIS
asked if I wanted to allow a cookie, so I did. Got in fine. Then I deleted
the cookie and re-entered, this time blocking the cookie. This time it
prompted me for the SSA membership. I then deleted the blocked cookie and
re-entered, this time allowing cookies again. It accepted without asking
for the SSA membership.

The end result is, as long as I allow cookies, it will let me in. AFAIK,
the cookie info regarding SSA membership is only kept within the cookie.
"5Z" wrote in message
ups.com...

Jim Vincent wrote:
I accessed the letter directly on the SSA website without the need of a
user
name or password. Given the ease of access, I don't think there was
anything confidential, per se.

You must have had a cookie set. If I logout, then click on that link,
I'm asked to login.

Bill Daniels wrote:

"It seems to come from people who don't care to make an
effort to be good enough pilots to compete and whose egos can't stand
hearing about those who can and do. "

You've hit the nail on the head here. I think this is the true source
of all the whining you hear about the two or three pages of Soaring
typically devoted to contest related news.

BILL:

Why don't YOU and your SUBGROUP "give it a rest??? Your group is very loud and quite full of themselves and it seems to be of great importance to you to have the badges and the published recognition that comes from flying in and perhaps even winning in contests.

You and your group simply do not get it.. not since 1960 from your note.. There are a bunch of people who just fly for the sheer joy of flying. Judging one's progress as a pilot does not have to come from a contest scorecard or from having your name appear in a magazine. There are many who have really "been there and done that" who currently simply strive to maintain proficiency in the face of advancing years. This group includes many with 20,000+++ hours in every type of flying machine imaginable. Pushing the envelope of proficiency is a thing of the past. it is irrelevant. The challenge is to have an enjoyable day in the air and to maintain a proficiency level consistent with the highest standards of safe flying. Sometimes the challenge is to move a bit farther from the field.. or to core a thermal perfectly. or to just grease in a landing . I have a friend in his 80's, with more hours than god who flys by himself 2 or 3 times a week... sometimes for 3 to 4 hours at a time. he gave primary flight instruction in 1940 to navy pilots. Are you really serious when you suggest that he ought to measure his skills against the contest set. He simply does not care.

neither do I . I suspect that there are a whole lot of ex airline pilots and ex military pilots who just love to fly who understand that its how you feel about yourself and how you feel in the air thats important... not how you place in a contest nor how many badges you have on the wall.

To each group i say "good on ya" just don't bother telling me that i am worthless as a pilot because i do not choose to compete, or because i am not interested. To the extent that your group has seized control of the direction of SSA and fostered the mentality you so accurately describe, you are leaving behind a large group of people that you might learn some life lessons from. My ego is fully intact and UNDER CONTROL... HOW ABOUT YOURS???




"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message ...

"5-BG" 5-bghatesspam @ fake.com wrote in message
...
Joe in Georgia wrote "I doubt pursuits like
Badge / Record Claims, Sporting code changes, sailplane handicaps,
conventions, or contest management would be of any interest to them,
and that is our bread and butter."

That MAY BE BREAD AND BUTTER to the contest pilot set, but it is of
absolutly no interest to a significant number of recreational pilots who
soar just to be flying and who have no interest whatsoever in
contests,badges etc. A great deal of SSA resources are spent each month on a
glossy magazine which is devoted in large part ( altho I do acknowledge the
recent attempts to broaden its scope) to contests and to the "elite " of the
sport. I wonder just how many of the 16,000 members actually care about the
contest circuit.

It is my opinion that the focus on contests as a measure of whether or not
someone is having fun has not only lef to a split in the ranks of the SSA,
but has also had a very bad impact on the business of building gliders
suitable for the general flying population. I saw this same thing 30 years
ago in ocean sailboat racing. The concept of daysailing, cruising and just
having a good time was replaced by an emphasis on competition. From the
individual yatch club level to the world cup. Boats got much faster AND way
more expensive. They became more fragile and were outdated after a couple of
seasons.
I believe that the glorification of competition is OK and that it satisfies
the ego needs of a significant portion of the pilots who own sailplanes.
HOWEVER to say that it is the bread and butter of the SSA is just plain
wrong.

we wonder why kids are not coming into a sport that takes a $100,000 hot
rod to be competitive. The attitude that if you don't have the latest
glass ship that dominated the nationals last month you are somhow a lesser
pilot is fostered by this bread and butter attitude. What ever happened to
just jumping in a sailplane and losing oneself in the sky for several hours
of solitude? Whatever happened to the concept of just trying to improve or
develop skills just for personal satisfaction? These concepts are the bread
and butter of soaring.
Not only have the finances of SSA been mismanaged, but i believe that the
society has become irrevelant to a significant portion of its recreational
for fun pilots.
5bg


This is bulls**t - give it a rest. I've heard it since I started flying
gliders in 1960. It seems to come from people who don't care to make an
effort to be good enough pilots to compete and whose egos can't stand
hearing about those who can and do. All good pilots want to get better and
reading about the accomplishments or others is an excellent incentive.

It's like saying that kids who play ball don't care about the World Cup.
Or the readers of Road & Track don't care about auto racing's Grand Prix
Circuits. Most people who fly gliders want to read about competition
whether it be just badges or the new Grand Prix Racing curcuit. This is one
of the things the SSA has always done right.

Bill Daniels

fadoodle

you wrote "You've hit the nail on the head here. I think this is the true source
of all the whining you hear about the two or three pages of Soaring
typically devoted to contest related news

YOU DON'T GET IT EITHER!!!.. its not about the "2 pages" , which are actually quite a bit more than 2 pages.. but about the ATTITUDE that divides the membership. To the extent that everything is about performance and winning, the sport is leaving behind many, old and WOULD BE pilots. I saw Chuck Yeager on TV the other night flying a glider... with a safety pilot no less.. are you seriously suggesting that his ego is in danger because he was just having fun in the air.. with CHOKE.. a safety pilot along for the ride.. No I would have given a bunch to be that other pilot and to simply have had the privlege of flying just for fun with gen Yeager.
There are many "for fun" pilots who have very expansive "ego walls" filled with decorations and rememberances of past exploits that make a soaring badge or second place finish at the nationals seem almost laughable. These pilots have left behind, long ago, the need for constant ego stroking.
Perhaps the current situation will provide an excuse for the ssa to reevaluate its core values and thrust of its operations.

wrote in message oups.com...

Bill Daniels wrote:

"It seems to come from people who don't care to make an
effort to be good enough pilots to compete and whose egos can't stand
hearing about those who can and do. "

You've hit the nail on the head here. I think this is the true source
of all the whining you hear about the two or three pages of Soaring
typically devoted to contest related news.

Sorry Bill. Reading about contest flying is about
as exciting as watching paint dry.

I will admit that the OLC has opened up some avenues
for leaning by example, though.



At 23:06 07 September 2006, Bill Daniels wrote:

'5-BG' wrote in message
...
Joe in Georgia wrote 'I doubt pursuits like
Badge / Record Claims, Sporting code changes, sailplane
handicaps,
conventions, or contest management would be of any
interest to them,
and that is our bread and butter.'

That MAY BE BREAD AND BUTTER to the contest pilot
set, but it is of
absolutly no interest to a significant number of recreational
pilots who
soar just to be flying and who have no interest whatsoever
in
contests,badges etc. A great deal of SSA resources
are spent each month on a
glossy magazine which is devoted in large part ( altho
I do acknowledge the
recent attempts to broaden its scope) to contests and
to the 'elite ' of the
sport. I wonder just how many of the 16,000 members
actually care about the
contest circuit.

It is my opinion that the focus on contests as a
measure of whether or not
someone is having fun has not only lef to a split in
the ranks of the SSA,
but has also had a very bad impact on the business
of building gliders
suitable for the general flying population. I saw this
same thing 30 years
ago in ocean sailboat racing. The concept of daysailing,
cruising and just
having a good time was replaced by an emphasis on competition.
From the
individual yatch club level to the world cup. Boats
got much faster AND way
more expensive. They became more fragile and were outdated
after a couple of
seasons.
I believe that the glorification of competition is
OK and that it satisfies
the ego needs of a significant portion of the pilots
who own sailplanes.
HOWEVER to say that it is the bread and butter of the
SSA is just plain
wrong.

we wonder why kids are not coming into a sport that
takes a $100,000 hot
rod to be competitive. The attitude that if you don't
have the latest
glass ship that dominated the nationals last month
you are somhow a lesser
pilot is fostered by this bread and butter attitude.
What ever happened to
just jumping in a sailplane and losing oneself in the
sky for several hours
of solitude? Whatever happened to the concept of just
trying to improve or
develop skills just for personal satisfaction? These
concepts are the bread
and butter of soaring.
Not only have the finances of SSA been mismanaged,
but i believe that the
society has become irrevelant to a significant portion
of its recreational
for fun pilots.
5bg


This is bulls**t - give it a rest. I've heard it
since I started flying
gliders in 1960. It seems to come from people who don't
care to make an
effort to be good enough pilots to compete and whose
egos can't stand
hearing about those who can and do. All good pilots
want to get better and
reading about the accomplishments or others is an excellent
incentive.

It's like saying that kids who play ball don't care
about the World Cup.
Or the readers of Road & Track don't care about auto
racing's Grand Prix
Circuits. Most people who fly gliders want to read
about competition
whether it be just badges or the new Grand Prix Racing
curcuit. This is one
of the things the SSA has always done right.

Bill Daniels