How often do you have to go around?

In article ,
Matt Whiting wrote:
Wade Hasbrouck wrote:

PWT gets pretty busy too... had some guy cut in front of me on final
there... :-) I was following the guy in front of me, heard him call
his base turn, saw him turn, heard him call his turn to final turn, saw
him turn... and was following him... as I turned final, I heard a guy
behind me call his base turn, while on final I heard him call his turn
to final, and while looking around thought "well, he must be behind
me..." and all of a sudden about 100' in front of me and about 50 - 100'
above me was a 172 :-) I then advised on the CTAF "Skyhawk that just
turned final... you have another Skyhawk underneath you... ON FINAL!",
Watched him for a couple seconds as started to strategize "What should I
do?" (student at the time practicing landings by myself), and if he
didn't do anything I was going to go-around left of the runway...
Couldn't go around on the right as there are skydivers over there now
(1/4 west of the airport)... but pretty soon I see flaps starting to go
up and he announces he is doing a go-around... :-) Stopped and had
lunch after that. :-)

Your smiley key is sticking...


As are both of your ... keys.

Recently, Mxsmanic posted:

Neil Gould writes:

If you are unable
to execute a go-around, you should have notified ATC about it well
ahead of time so that they could plan accordingly.

The simulator does not give me the option of refusing.

It also doesn't make the plane unable to execute the instruction. Ergo,
you should have gone around.

Neil

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Ron Wanttaja writes:

None at our field. Don't know about elsewhere.

Speaking of Boeing field, I assumed it was a company field for Boeing.
Isn't it? What kind of traffic does it have? It seems oddly placed
so close to KSEA.

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It is technically "King County International Airport/Boeing Field" It is
owned and operated by King County. Here is the website for the airport, they
nice little video about the aiport there http://www.metrokc.gov/airport/

It was originally named Boeing Field in honor of William P. Boeing, founder
of The Boeing Company, and is still refered to by that name, even though
officially its name is "King County International Airport". Boeing still
does a lot of servicing, delivery and testing at Boeing. Boeing builds 737s
at the Renton Municipal Airport, and then they are flown, usually unpainted
to either Paine Field or Boeing Field to painted if needed and delivered.
When airlines need planes serviced by Boeing they are usually taken to
Boeing Field.

I believe Paine Field (PAE) in Everette is the same as Boeing Field, in that
it is owned by the county and Boeing has space at the airport. Boeing
builds 747, 767, 777, and eventualy the 787 at Paine Field.

Boeing Field was built way before Sea-Tac (a.k.a KSEA, or "Seattle-Tacoma
International Airport"). Yes Sea-Tac is quite close, and that is what makes
Boeing Field an interesting place to learn to fly from, as you have to have
a good sense of where you are at all times (basically to avoid the Class B),
and be somewhat cautious as occaisonally while in the downwind for 13R,
pattern altitude is 800' and you can occaisionally catch wake turbulence for
jets going into Sea-Tac, and that will "wake you up" (no pun intended).

"Spam Magnet" wrote in message
m...
In article ,
Matt Whiting wrote:
Wade Hasbrouck wrote:

PWT gets pretty busy too... had some guy cut in front of me on final
there... :-) I was following the guy in front of me, heard him call
his base turn, saw him turn, heard him call his turn to final turn, saw
him turn... and was following him... as I turned final, I heard a guy
behind me call his base turn, while on final I heard him call his turn
to final, and while looking around thought "well, he must be behind
me..." and all of a sudden about 100' in front of me and about 50 - 100'
above me was a 172 :-) I then advised on the CTAF "Skyhawk that just
turned final... you have another Skyhawk underneath you... ON FINAL!",
Watched him for a couple seconds as started to strategize "What should I
do?" (student at the time practicing landings by myself), and if he
didn't do anything I was going to go-around left of the runway...
Couldn't go around on the right as there are skydivers over there now
(1/4 west of the airport)... but pretty soon I see flaps starting to go
up and he announces he is doing a go-around... :-) Stopped and had
lunch after that. :-)

Your smiley key is sticking...


As are both of your ... keys.


I know.... Bad habits. :-)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mxsmanic"
Now, how are you looking at the traffic when you try to check if it
has passed your wingtip?

You look out the window. The side window is most useful for this. Pretty
obvious. He will be lower than you and in a high wing aircraft like the 172
you can see the traffic and the wing at the same time. Haven't flown a low
wing, but would imagine you would do something similar like, "watch the
traffic, and the wing will 'hide' the traffic, and then when the traffic is
past your wingtip it the traffic will be visible again...

And for some reason, I always seem to drift slightly left just as I'm
coming up on decision height. I don't know what does this. The
engines are usually near idle, so it doesn't seem like it'd be a
sudden surge of torque or anything. And it seems improbable that the
surface winds are _always_ blowing to the left.

It has been several months since I messed around with Flight Sim, but I
haven't ever really noticed this, so I can't really comment on what is going
on. The winds due depend on if you are using the "real weather" or not...
Can't comment on anything more than 172.

anywhere

§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.
(a) Inapplicability. This section does not apply to the
operation of an aircraft on water.

(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of
whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight
rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained
by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid
other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another
aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that
aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless
well clear.

(c) In distress. An aircraft in distress has the
right-of-way over all other air traffic.

(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are
converging at approximately the same altitude (except
head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right
has the right-of-way. If the aircraft are of different
categories-

(1) A balloon has the right-of-way over any other category
of aircraft;

(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered
parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or
rotorcraft.

(3) An airship has the right-of-way over a powered
parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or
rotorcraft.

However, an aircraft towing or refueling other aircraft has
the right-of-way over all other engine-driven aircraft.

(e) Approaching head-on. When aircraft are approaching each
other head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each aircraft
shall alter course to the right.

(f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has
the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft
shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or
while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in
flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall
not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the
runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to
make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more
aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of
landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the
right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule
to cut in front of another which is on final approach to
land or to overtake that aircraft.

[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34294, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by
Amdt. 91-282, 69 FR 44880, July 27, 2004]


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"Newps" wrote in message
. ..
|
|
| Tim Nunes wrote:
|
|
| Yes there is a rule saying gliders have the right of
way.
|
| Uncontrolled fields.
|
|
| Yes there is a rule saying you can't have two airplanes
on the same
| runway at the same time.
|
| There's also a rule that says you can. Towered fields
only. No such
| rules for uncontrolled fields.
|
|
|
| If the other plane isn't past the Runway Hold
| Short line and another airplane lands, it is considered
a runway
| incursion.
|
| You have that backwards. Controlled fields only.
|

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Roy Smith writes:

That's a pretty good rule of thumb when the two aircraft are flying at
similar speeds. It doesn't work when (for example), you're a 172 and the
guy on final is a Cub going 10 or 20 kts slower than you.

Does this mean that you have to know how fast each aircraft can or
usually does go, or can you easily tell how fast it is moving just by
watching it?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

I think it is pretty common knowledge that if an airplane looks similar to
your airplane, it is probably going the same speed as you, if it is "sleeker
and sexier" than yours, it is probably going faster, if is not as "sleek and
sexy" probably slower... If it is bigger, it probably goes faster, if it is
smaller, probably goes slower. If it has more engines than you, probably
faster, less would be slower. If it burns high grade Kerosene (Jet A) and
you are buring 100LL, it is probably faster, reverse this for "slower".

But this isn't always true and requires judgement and knowledge on the
pilot's part. i.e. While a 150 and a 172 look similar (172 is slightly
"sexier" and a little "sleeker" and is bigger and generally flys a little
faster than the 150) it is possible to fly a 172 at 59 kts on final, while
flying a 150 at 75 knots on final... so if the 150 is behind the 172, the
150 pilot needs to realize he is going faster than the 172 and slow down
(not hard in a 150), which you judge by looking out the window and seeing if
the airplane is getting bigger or smaller (only works if you are going in
the same direction)

Being a 172 "driver", I know that anything that has more than one engine, or
a jet engine is going to be faster than me, also know most low wing aircraft
are going be faster than me (exceptions could be some Diamonds, some
experimentals, some Pipers like the Tomahawk, but these are typically
smaller than a 172). Most high wing aircraft are going to be right around
my speed range (182s are faster, 150s a little slower, taildraggers are
probably going to be slower because of their landing characteristics, but I
don't know much about taildraggers)

A Lieberma wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote in
:

I think one problem is that I was not flying the pattern correctly.
The Cessna pulled in front of me. I'm still not clear on how long
each leg of the pattern is supposed to be, although I'm very gradually
getting better at flying a pattern without wandering all over the
place.

I think the problem is that you are not in a REAL PLANE. You would be less
prone to wandering when you can see the world in three dimension rather
then the flat screen of a monitor.

Oh gee, there is a pilot side window, a co-pilot / passenger window and
even in some planes a rear window you can quickly glance out to assess your
situational awareness in the pattern. OF COURSE, YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW THIS
SINCE YOU HAVE NOT FLOWN A REAL PLANE.

That's the advantage of simulation. Mistakes in simulation cost
nothing.

and you get no sense of accomplishment sitting in your lazy boy chair
either AFTER flying a REAL plane. After all, you are only SIMULATING what
is experienced better in a REAL plane.

Allen

You, sir, are a disgrace to aviation as a hobby. The fact that Mxsmanic
is asking questions to real-life pilots concerning real-life situations
while using a simulator demonstrates how much dedication he has, and he
would be an asset to aviation if he were to ever decide to move on to
take some lessons, but it's because of people like you that will likely
turn him away with your "holier than thou" outlook on those who aren't
a part of the hobby/industry. You're right, simulators fall dreadfully
short in depicting how things happen in real-life, but that's not
Mxsmanic's fault, and I frown upon anyone tearing apart somebody else
for seeking advice from a reliable source.

You're on notice.

Of course, when on forums you DO have your occasional troll lurking
around as well.



Timmay wrote:
A Lieberma wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote in
:

I think one problem is that I was not flying the pattern correctly.
The Cessna pulled in front of me. I'm still not clear on how long
each leg of the pattern is supposed to be, although I'm very gradually
getting better at flying a pattern without wandering all over the
place.

I think the problem is that you are not in a REAL PLANE. You would be less
prone to wandering when you can see the world in three dimension rather
then the flat screen of a monitor.

Oh gee, there is a pilot side window, a co-pilot / passenger window and
even in some planes a rear window you can quickly glance out to assess your
situational awareness in the pattern. OF COURSE, YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW THIS
SINCE YOU HAVE NOT FLOWN A REAL PLANE.

That's the advantage of simulation. Mistakes in simulation cost
nothing.

and you get no sense of accomplishment sitting in your lazy boy chair
either AFTER flying a REAL plane. After all, you are only SIMULATING what
is experienced better in a REAL plane.

Allen

You, sir, are a disgrace to aviation as a hobby. The fact that Mxsmanic
is asking questions to real-life pilots concerning real-life situations
while using a simulator demonstrates how much dedication he has, and he
would be an asset to aviation if he were to ever decide to move on to
take some lessons, but it's because of people like you that will likely
turn him away with your "holier than thou" outlook on those who aren't
a part of the hobby/industry. You're right, simulators fall dreadfully
short in depicting how things happen in real-life, but that's not
Mxsmanic's fault, and I frown upon anyone tearing apart somebody else
for seeking advice from a reliable source.

You're on notice.

Neil Gould writes:

It also doesn't make the plane unable to execute the instruction. Ergo,
you should have gone around.

Instructions are flexible in simulation. If I followed all
instructions slavishly, I'd occasionally be stuck for eternity on the
ramp because the simulator doesn't give me the option of asking to
taxi and take off.

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