Airplane shot down in Colombia

Summary: US and Colombian agents shoot down a smuggling suspect:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=063_1182300981

This is shocking to me on so many levels - extrajudicial execution on
tape with Americans involved. Drug smuggling is a problem and all, but
this isn't like a police car chase where there is clear danger to
bystanders. Couldn't the authorities avoid deadly force?!? From the
tape it seems like the authorities were very concerned about the
proximity of the border but even if they would have had to let the plane
get away, that is no excuse for their trigger finger to do the police work!

Does anyone have any more context on this incident? Anyone know how
common this is? There was a family of missionaries that was shot down a
few years back in a similar anti-drug operation. Makes me sick.

-Aviv

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 10:44:40 -0400, Aviv Hod
wrote in
:

Summary: US and Colombian agents shoot down a smuggling suspect:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=063_1182300981

This is shocking to me on so many levels - extrajudicial execution on
tape with Americans involved. Drug smuggling is a problem and all, but
this isn't like a police car chase where there is clear danger to
bystanders. Couldn't the authorities avoid deadly force?!? From the
tape it seems like the authorities were very concerned about the
proximity of the border but even if they would have had to let the plane
get away, that is no excuse for their trigger finger to do the police work!

Does anyone have any more context on this incident? Anyone know how
common this is? There was a family of missionaries that was shot down a
few years back in a similar anti-drug operation. Makes me sick.

-Aviv

I presume you are aware of a similar incident in which a missionary
aircraft was shot down by mistake several years ago.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 10:44:40 -0400, Aviv Hod
wrote in
:

There was a family of missionaries that was shot
down a few years back in a similar anti-drug operation. Makes me
sick.

I presume you are aware of a similar incident in which a missionary
aircraft was shot down by mistake several years ago.

You obviously presume correctly.

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://openspf.org
____________________

Recently, John T posted:

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 10:44:40 -0400, Aviv Hod
wrote in
:

There was a family of missionaries that was shot
down a few years back in a similar anti-drug operation. Makes me
sick.

I presume you are aware of a similar incident in which a missionary
aircraft was shot down by mistake several years ago.

You obviously presume correctly.

You spelled "obliviously" wrong. ;-)

Neil

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 10:44:40 -0400, Aviv Hod
wrote in
:

Summary: US and Colombian agents shoot down a smuggling suspect:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=063_1182300981

This is shocking to me on so many levels - extrajudicial execution on
tape with Americans involved. Drug smuggling is a problem and all, but
this isn't like a police car chase where there is clear danger to
bystanders. Couldn't the authorities avoid deadly force?!? From the
tape it seems like the authorities were very concerned about the
proximity of the border but even if they would have had to let the plane
get away, that is no excuse for their trigger finger to do the police work!

Does anyone have any more context on this incident? Anyone know how
common this is? There was a family of missionaries that was shot down a
few years back in a similar anti-drug operation. Makes me sick.

-Aviv

I presume you are aware of a similar incident in which a missionary
aircraft was shot down by mistake several years ago.


Yes, that is probably why he referred to it in his next to last sentence.

Matt

Aviv Hod wrote:
Summary: US and Colombian agents shoot down a smuggling suspect:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=063_1182300981

This is shocking to me on so many levels - extrajudicial execution on
tape with Americans involved. Drug smuggling is a problem and all, but
this isn't like a police car chase where there is clear danger to
bystanders. Couldn't the authorities avoid deadly force?!? From the
tape it seems like the authorities were very concerned about the
proximity of the border but even if they would have had to let the plane
get away, that is no excuse for their trigger finger to do the police work!

Does anyone have any more context on this incident? Anyone know how
common this is? There was a family of missionaries that was shot down a
few years back in a similar anti-drug operation. Makes me sick.

-Aviv

So what do you propose?

Copy his tail number down and terminate the chase? How would you STOP
this aircraft if the pilot doesnt want to cooperate?

Tell us the answer.

"Dave S" wrote in message nk.net...
Aviv Hod wrote:
Summary: US and Colombian agents shoot down a smuggling suspect:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=063_1182300981

This is shocking to me on so many levels - extrajudicial execution on tape with Americans involved. Drug smuggling
is a problem and all, but this isn't like a police car chase where there is clear danger to bystanders. Couldn't the
authorities avoid deadly force?!? From the tape it seems like the authorities were very concerned about the
proximity of the border but even if they would have had to let the plane get away, that is no excuse for their
trigger finger to do the police work!

Does anyone have any more context on this incident? Anyone know how common this is? There was a family of
missionaries that was shot down a few years back in a similar anti-drug operation. Makes me sick.

-Aviv

So what do you propose?

Copy his tail number down and terminate the chase? How would you STOP this aircraft if the pilot doesnt want to
cooperate?

Tell us the answer.

Why bother. Illegal drugs just provide a way for the bad guys to get more money...

Dave S wrote:
Aviv Hod wrote:
Summary: US and Colombian agents shoot down a smuggling suspect:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=063_1182300981

This is shocking to me on so many levels - extrajudicial execution on
tape with Americans involved. Drug smuggling is a problem and all,
but this isn't like a police car chase where there is clear danger to
bystanders. Couldn't the authorities avoid deadly force?!? From the
tape it seems like the authorities were very concerned about the
proximity of the border but even if they would have had to let the
plane get away, that is no excuse for their trigger finger to do the
police work!

Does anyone have any more context on this incident? Anyone know how
common this is? There was a family of missionaries that was shot down
a few years back in a similar anti-drug operation. Makes me sick.

-Aviv

So what do you propose?

Copy his tail number down and terminate the chase? How would you STOP
this aircraft if the pilot doesnt want to cooperate?

Tell us the answer.

I don't know the answer to your question. Perhaps you are correct that
shooting the plane down is the only way to STOP the aircraft RIGHT NOW.
But is stopping the plane RIGHT NOW critical to anyone's safety?
Since no one was in danger during the pursuit (like there is in a car
chase on the freeway for example) I see no justification to use deadly
force.

Granted, if there is a border that can be crossed where the smuggler can
be in a safe haven, it sounds to me like a diplomatic problem that ought
to be addressed diplomatically. There are ways to provide incentives
for countries to cooperate so that you can chase the aircraft to its
destination and deal with the criminal issues there.

Law enforcement folks constantly make grave decisions to apply the
appropriate level of force for a given situation. Without immediate
threat to life from the smuggling plane, this strikes me as heavy handed
to the extreme.

-Aviv

Aviv Hod wrote:
Without immediate
threat to life from the smuggling plane, this strikes me as heavy handed
to the extreme.

-Aviv

And that is where we disagree.

If you arent doing anything wrong, you have no reason to run.


I frankly wish that US domestic law enforcement was empowered to
terminate pursuits sooner rather than later.

While this veers OT, I feel someone fleeing police in a car/truck etc is
behaving recklessly with a deadly weapon - the vehicle itself. That
endangers the lives of innocents. That, in and of itself, justifies the
use of force, and deadly force, to terminate a pursuit and protect the
public in doing so.

In the same vein, maybe some drug pilots will rethink their career
choice if they know that they will be shot down for failure to comply
with law enforcement or military directives to stop, land and be
searched. Maybe the drug pilots will decide that their life isnt worth it.

If this drug pilot wanted to live, he had the ability to make a simple
choice. Divert and be inspected. He made his choice, and he died because
of it. Its a drug WAR. People die in wars. And this pilot had more due
process extended to him than any victim of a drug cartel's henchman.

What is so hard about understanding that when a bad actor dies at the
hands of the military or law enforcement, its a series of choices by the
bad actor that leads to this outcome? What is so hard about putting
blame where it belongs?

On Jul 1, 2:06 am, Dave S wrote:
Aviv Hod wrote:

Without immediate

threat to life from the smuggling plane, this strikes me as heavy handed
to the extreme.

-Aviv

And that is where we disagree.

If you arent doing anything wrong, you have no reason to run.

If you aren't doing anything wrong, you have no reason to stop.


I frankly wish that US domestic law enforcement was empowered to
terminate pursuits sooner rather than later.

While this veers OT, I feel someone fleeing

Your use of the word "flee" presupposes that you have done something
wrong to be "fleeing" from, or that the person trying to convince you
to stop has the right to interfere with your activities.

police in a car/truck etc is
behaving recklessly with a deadly weapon - the vehicle itself. That
endangers the lives of innocents. That, in and of itself, justifies the
use of force, and deadly force, to terminate a pursuit and protect the
public in doing so.

One could just as easily argue that the pursuers pose just as much
threat to the public as the pursued ... and if anyone is hurt as much
if not more of the blame.

Consider also that when the police or military are given the authority
to arbitrarily stop and search or question (or "deadly force" against)
people ... then you have allowed your nation to become a police state!


In the same vein, maybe some drug pilots will rethink their career
choice if they know that they will be shot down for failure to comply
with law enforcement or military directives to stop, land and be
searched. Maybe the drug pilots will decide that their life isnt worth it.

If this drug pilot wanted to live, he had the ability to make a simple
choice. Divert and be inspected.

Or ... if he refused to divert, simply follow the plane until it was
forced to land somewhere when it ran out of fuel; perhaps resulting in
the location of more important criminals in the chain ... and their
arrest, if there is criminal activity involved in the flight in the
first place.

He made his choice, and he died because
of it. Its a drug WAR.

By whose definition is this situation a WAR as you say ... some
arbitrary fiat by some politicians in the 1980s? I think calling this
kind of activity a war is insulting to the armed forces personnel that
have fought and died for real causes in the last century. The so-
called war on drugs is political posturing and always has been. To
expand on this point, the public in the last decade or two is being
increasingly deceived into a false sense of righteousness about any
disagreements that politicians might have with any group, be they
foreign or domestic, by the deceptive and devious use of the word
"war" in order to justify to the public political activity that really
bears no genuine resemblance to war whatsoever, but merely meddling in
another sovereign nation's politics, or, what is worse perhaps,
justifying ever greater intrusions into the privacy and freedoms that
we used to understand as being rights in an open and free society.

People die in wars. And this pilot had more due
process extended to him than any victim of a drug cartel's henchman.

What is so hard about understanding that when a bad actor dies at the
hands of the military or law enforcement, its a series of choices by the
bad actor that leads to this outcome?

What is so hard about putting
blame where it belongs?

Nothing ... but do you immediately know every "bad actor" you
encounter? By exactly what signs or attributes can you so judge these
people, and know the good from the bad?