Experimental Certificate Granted UAV If MAC "Extremely Improbable"!

On Feb 25, 10:41*am, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:45:28 -0800 (PST), Phil J
wrote in
:

I fully expect to see the NAS crowded with UAVs once they get it all
worked out. *What gives you the idea that there won't be many of them?

I don't expect this. *My guess is these things will only be deployed
when there is a known risk that law enforcement wants to pursue. *I
don't think that will mean a sky full of them. *What makes you think
that our airspace will be crowded with them?

Well, I've done some research. *This story indicates that UAVs will
haul cargo:http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=11250026
That might fill the skies alone.

There is information about some UAV applications available hehttp://www..uavm.com/uavapplications.html
General Commercial Applications
Meteorology see also Weather * 1, *2, *3
Hurricane Monitoring see also *1, *2
Cryospheric Research - Arctic and Antarctic
Civil Engineering
Bridge Inspection
Scientific Research see also 1, *2, *3, *4
* * * * Transmission Line Inspection
* * * * Pipeline Inspection see also 1, 2
HAZMAT Inspection
Epidemic Emergency Medical Supply see also 1, 2, 3, 4
Traffic Monitoring
Aerial Surveying
Damage Assessment
Insurance Claim Appraisal
Real Estate Marketing
Golf - Resort Marketing
Stadium Event Monitoring
* * * ConcertSecurity
* * * Sports Video
Runway Inspection
Corridor Mapping
Virtual Tours
Landmark Inspection
*Precision Agricultural - Wildlife and Land Management
Coffee Harvest Optimization
Vigor Mapping and Frost Mitigation
Crop Disease Management see also 1, 2, 3
Corn Precision AG Studies *see also 1
Herd Tracking and Management
Entomology
Forestry Inspection
Fisheries Management
Species Conservation
Wildlife Inventory
Mineral Exploration
Remote Aerial Survey
Forest Fire Surveillance
Forest Fire Mapping
Volcano Monitoring
Remote Aerial Mapping
Oil Spill Tracking
Snow Pack Avalanche Monitoring
Ice Pack Monitoring
Poaching Patrol

More hehttp://www.uavm.com/images/NASA_UAV_...ment-2004..pdf

Have you done ANY UAV research yourself personally, or you just
providing your own unsupported personal opinions?

I'm beginning to see why some people on this group find you so
obnoxious, Larry. I was responding to your original post which had to
do with law enforcement use of UAVs. But since you brought it up,
most of the uses you mentioned take place in remote locations like
forests, mountains, rivers, over the ocean, or in the arctic. Are you
seriously saying that those applications constitute a threat to people
on the ground? Some of your applications would involve flying over
populated areas. But I notice you didn't respond to my point about
the government changing regulations if and when UAVs do become a
problem. Nothing is set in stone here, Larry. If there is a problem
you can bet the politicians and bureacrats will want to jump on it.
It's in their own self-interest to do so because it's a way for them
to demonstrate how much they care about us. Right now UAVs represent
an application with a lot of potential. If we shut it down before we
even try it because something MIGHT go wrong, how do we know what it
might accomplish?

I noticed you also didn't respond to my point about the benefits of
law enforcement use of UAVs either. They aren't doing this just for
fun. They are trying to accomplish something for the public good.
Frankly your reaction strikes me as similar to that of the people who
don't want any more general aviation airports built, or want the
existing ones shut down. One of the complaints of people who live
near these airports is that there is a danger from aircraft crashing
on their houses. The risk to these people is actually very small, but
they try to use it to get rid of those noisy, bothersome airplanes
anyway.

Phil

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:01:29 -0800 (PST), Phil J
wrote in
:

On Feb 25, 10:41*am, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:45:28 -0800 (PST), Phil J
wrote in
:

I fully expect to see the NAS crowded with UAVs once they get it all
worked out. *What gives you the idea that there won't be many of them?

I don't expect this. *My guess is these things will only be deployed
when there is a known risk that law enforcement wants to pursue. *I
don't think that will mean a sky full of them. *What makes you think
that our airspace will be crowded with them?

Well, I've done some research. *This story indicates that UAVs will
haul cargo: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=11250026
That might fill the skies alone.

There is information about some UAV applications available hehttp://www.uavm.com/uavapplications.html
General Commercial Applications
Meteorology see also Weather * 1, *2, *3
Hurricane Monitoring see also *1, *2
Cryospheric Research - Arctic and Antarctic
Civil Engineering
Bridge Inspection
Scientific Research see also 1, *2, *3, *4
* * * * Transmission Line Inspection
* * * * Pipeline Inspection see also 1, 2
HAZMAT Inspection
Epidemic Emergency Medical Supply see also 1, 2, 3, 4
Traffic Monitoring
Aerial Surveying
Damage Assessment
Insurance Claim Appraisal
Real Estate Marketing
Golf - Resort Marketing
Stadium Event Monitoring
* * * ConcertSecurity
* * * Sports Video
Runway Inspection
Corridor Mapping
Virtual Tours
Landmark Inspection
*Precision Agricultural - Wildlife and Land Management
Coffee Harvest Optimization
Vigor Mapping and Frost Mitigation
Crop Disease Management see also 1, 2, 3
Corn Precision AG Studies *see also 1
Herd Tracking and Management
Entomology
Forestry Inspection
Fisheries Management
Species Conservation
Wildlife Inventory
Mineral Exploration
Remote Aerial Survey
Forest Fire Surveillance
Forest Fire Mapping
Volcano Monitoring
Remote Aerial Mapping
Oil Spill Tracking
Snow Pack Avalanche Monitoring
Ice Pack Monitoring
Poaching Patrol

More hehttp://www.uavm.com/images/NASA_UAV_...sment-2004.pdf

Have you done ANY UAV research yourself personally, or you just
providing your own unsupported personal opinions?

I'm beginning to see why some people on this group find you so
obnoxious, Larry.

I don't know why. I provide you a lot of credible information in
response to your question, but you apparently choose to ignore it. I
find that frustrating.

I was responding to your original post which had to
do with law enforcement use of UAVs.

If you look at what you wrote, you'll find that you asked:

"What makes you think that our airspace will be crowded with
them?"

I provided you with information that supports my position, but you
interpret it as obnoxious. I'm afraid I just don't understand you.
You want an answer, and when you get it, you're unhappy and go off on
some tangent.

If UAVs are employed to haul freight, you can bet the sky will be full
of them. Did you even visit this link?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=11250026


I've got a question or two for you:

How long have you been a student pilot?

Have you soloed yet?

Larry Dighera wrote in
:


I'm beginning to see why some people on this group find you so
obnoxious, Larry.

I don't know why.

I do.

And I keep telling you! No charge!

Bertie

Jim Logajan wrote:


So what recent technical or economic cusp was recently crossed that
suddenly makes UAVs sufficiently viable in any of those applications that
would cause the skies to be filled with them?

Not that I think it is going to happen but the answer is computers.

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 18:18:00 -0000, Jim Logajan
wrote in :

Larry Dighera wrote:
Well, I've done some research. This story indicates that UAVs will
haul cargo:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=11250026
That might fill the skies alone.

There is information about some UAV applications available he
http://www.uavm.com/uavapplications.html
[ List elided for brevity. See web site. ]

[Thank you for snipping the list; it is in the deja.com database now,
so there's no need to clutter things up with it again.

I include a lot of the research material I find in my articles for
several reasons:

1. Web-page content tends to become unavailable as it ages.

2. It makes it easier for the reader to view background material.

3. It is independently created, and thus not viewed as my
opinion.

4. It lends credibility to the validity of the subject.

5. It remains in the deja.com Usenet archive for decades
facilitating further research.

For those reasons, I wish others would adopt the practice of quoting
credible source material in their articles, including URLs. ]


That same list of _potential_ applications also applies to airships. So
there is at least one counter-example proving that potential doesn't
necessarily translate into real world application.

Listen to the NPR podcast at the link above before you reach that
conclusion.

Furthermore, UAVs/UASs have been around since WW I. So in a sense their own
history is another counter-example showing their alleged advantages have
not translated into civilian applications on a large or even moderate
scale.

So what recent technical or economic cusp was recently crossed that
suddenly makes UAVs sufficiently viable in any of those applications that
would cause the skies to be filled with them?

Like I said before, the UAV manufacturers received Pentagon
development money and contracts for UAVs. Now they are seeking a
larger market than just the military. NASA has also assisted the
domestic UAV thrust. Do some research of your own if you truly want
to know what's going on with UAVs. I think you'll be surprised.

As technology advances, more applications and business opportunities
arise. Radar has been around for a while too, but it's only recently
been applied to trapping automobile speeders. Robots have been around
for a long time too, so I guess by your reasoning Detroit had no
reason to employ them for automobile manufacturing, right? :-)

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 14:37:33 -0600, Gig 601XL Builder
wrote in
:

Jim Logajan wrote:


So what recent technical or economic cusp was recently crossed that
suddenly makes UAVs sufficiently viable in any of those applications that
would cause the skies to be filled with them?

Not that I think it is going to happen but the answer is computers.

Right, small, lightweight computers, and GPS, solid-state gyros, high
frequency RF and satellite communications, ... The technology exists
now, but like a lot of innovative products, the market takes time to
develop.

The Wright brothers weren't able to interest the US Army in their
Flyer until five years after it flew despite the fact that they were
using aerial reconnaissance during the Civil War (lookup Thaddeus
Lowe, grandfather of Pancho Barnes), IIRC. Who in 1908 would have
thought there would be ~5,000 aircraft in flight over the CONUS at any
given time as there are today. Unmanned transportation systems are
gaining popularity. Consider the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) system
in San Francisco, and this recent contract:
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summ...99-1811622_ITM

On Feb 25, 1:40*pm, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:01:29 -0800 (PST), Phil J
wrote in
:





On Feb 25, 10:41*am, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:45:28 -0800 (PST), Phil J
wrote in
:

I fully expect to see the NAS crowded with UAVs once they get it all
worked out. *What gives you the idea that there won't be many of them?

I don't expect this. *My guess is these things will only be deployed
when there is a known risk that law enforcement wants to pursue. *I
don't think that will mean a sky full of them. *What makes you think
that our airspace will be crowded with them?

Well, I've done some research. *This story indicates that UAVs will
haul cargo:http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=11250026
That might fill the skies alone.

There is information about some UAV applications available hehttp://www.uavm.com/uavapplications.html
General Commercial Applications
Meteorology see also Weather * 1, *2, *3
Hurricane Monitoring see also *1, *2
Cryospheric Research - Arctic and Antarctic
Civil Engineering
Bridge Inspection
Scientific Research see also 1, *2, *3, *4
* * * * Transmission Line Inspection
* * * * Pipeline Inspection see also 1, 2
HAZMAT Inspection
Epidemic Emergency Medical Supply see also 1, 2, 3, 4
Traffic Monitoring
Aerial Surveying
Damage Assessment
Insurance Claim Appraisal
Real Estate Marketing
Golf - Resort Marketing
Stadium Event Monitoring
* * * ConcertSecurity
* * * Sports Video
Runway Inspection
Corridor Mapping
Virtual Tours
Landmark Inspection
*Precision Agricultural - Wildlife and Land Management
Coffee Harvest Optimization
Vigor Mapping and Frost Mitigation
Crop Disease Management see also 1, 2, 3
Corn Precision AG Studies *see also 1
Herd Tracking and Management
Entomology
Forestry Inspection
Fisheries Management
Species Conservation
Wildlife Inventory
Mineral Exploration
Remote Aerial Survey
Forest Fire Surveillance
Forest Fire Mapping
Volcano Monitoring
Remote Aerial Mapping
Oil Spill Tracking
Snow Pack Avalanche Monitoring
Ice Pack Monitoring
Poaching Patrol

More hehttp://www.uavm.com/images/NASA_UAV_...sment-2004.pdf

Have you done ANY UAV research yourself personally, or you just
providing your own unsupported personal opinions?

I'm beginning to see why some people on this group find you so
obnoxious, Larry. *

I don't know why. *I provide you a lot of credible information in
response to your question, but you apparently choose to ignore it. *I
find that frustrating. *

No, Larry, it's not your information that is obnoxious. It's your
condescending attitude. It's exhibited right here in your words:
Have you done ANY UAV research yourself personally, or you just
providing your own unsupported personal opinions?


I was responding to your original post which had to
do with law enforcement use of UAVs. *

If you look at what you wrote, you'll find that you asked:

* * "What makes you think that our airspace will be crowded with
* * them?"

I provided you with information that supports my position, but you
interpret it as obnoxious. *I'm afraid I just don't understand you.
You want an answer, and when you get it, you're unhappy and go off on
some tangent.

Yeah. I replied to the information you posted. I find it frustrating
that you continue to ignore the points I have been making, Larry.
*

If UAVs are employed to haul freight, you can bet the sky will be full
of them. *Did you even visit this link?http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=11250026

NOTE: I am responding specifically to that information here, Larry.
That article is about UAVs that are the equivalent of commercial
airliners. Do you really think the FAA is going to approve such a
thing without making damn sure it is reliable and safe? If anything,
most pilots complain that the FAA over-regulates, not under-
regulates. Do you feel like the FAA under-regulates aviation in this
country?


I've got a question or two for you:

* * How long have you been a student pilot?

* * Have you soloed yet?

I haven't soloed yet, though I am close. Is that a requirement for
posting here? Please explain to me how my number of training hours is
relevant to a discussion on UAVs.


Phil

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:46:44 -0800 (PST), Phil J
wrote in
:


If UAVs are employed to haul freight, you can bet the sky will be full
of them. *Did you even visit this link?http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=11250026

NOTE: I am responding specifically to that information here, Larry.
That article is about UAVs that are the equivalent of commercial
airliners. Do you really think the FAA is going to approve such a
thing without making damn sure it is reliable and safe?

What is your experience in dealing with the FAA? If you have, you'd
find it prudent to monitor their activities. At least that's my
experience.

If anything,
most pilots complain that the FAA over-regulates, not under-
regulates. Do you feel like the FAA under-regulates aviation in this
country?

I believe those who have crafted the regulations over the years have
made every effort to provide a well integrated system based on sound
engineering and tempered with real-life experiences, with the
exception of their necessity to violate their own regulations in order
to accommodate the military and other governmental agencies.


I've got a question or two for you:

* * How long have you been a student pilot?

* * Have you soloed yet?

I haven't soloed yet, though I am close. Is that a requirement for
posting here?

The only REQUIREMENTS for posting articles to this newsgroup are those
you choose to impose on yourself. Usenet relies upon self-governance,
and gateway terms of service policies to maintain its organization.

Please explain to me how my number of training hours is
relevant to a discussion on UAVs.


See, that's the sort of problem I'm having with your responses. I
said nothing about the NUMBER of hours you might have. I asked how
long you have been a student pilot.

I just had the feeling that you lacked depth in your knowledge of
aviation, so I thought I'd ask.

On Feb 26, 1:22*pm, Larry Dighera wrote:

See, that's the sort of problem I'm having with your responses. *I
said nothing about the NUMBER of hours you might have. *I asked how
long you have been a student pilot.

I just had the feeling that you lacked depth in your knowledge of
aviation, so I thought I'd ask. *

And there's the thinly veiled ad hominem you've been working yourself
up to since my first post on this thread. I've been following the
world of aviation for the past 40-some years. I'm only a newcomer to
actually flying the plane. It's a waste of time talking to you,
Larry.

Phil

Phil J wrote:
On Feb 26, 1:22*pm, Larry Dighera wrote:

See, that's the sort of problem I'm having with your responses. *I
said nothing about the NUMBER of hours you might have. *I asked how
long you have been a student pilot.

I just had the feeling that you lacked depth in your knowledge of
aviation, so I thought I'd ask. *

And there's the thinly veiled ad hominem
[ ... ]

Lot of that going around - only it's not so thinly veiled. ;-)

It also appears to have elements of an "appeal to authority," which is a
logical fallacy.

Locus ab auctoritate est infirmissimus ("The argument from authority is
the weakest.") - Thomas Aquinas