GW Bu$h's Torture Chambers and Rape rooms ...!

Ken Smith wrote:

You Know Who wrote:
In talk.politics.guns Ken Smith wrote:
You Know Who wrote:
In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" wrote:
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
le.com...
"Yardpilot" wrote in message
news:zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52...
"Pooched" wrote in message

[snip]

Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
recently went through this.

I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?

Jesus Christ!

Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.

What makes you think He was mythical?

A lack of evidence to support the Christians' most basic truth
claims. While no one actually disputes the erstwhile existence of ElRon
Hubbard, virtually no one outside the $cientology cult seriously
believes that he lived up to their collective biography of him.

Same with Jesus. There probably *was* a man upon whom the legend was
built, but there is no credible evidence that he was a messiah, or even
a reasonable facsimile of same. Therefore, "Jesus Christ" is a myth --
even as Pilate was a historical figure.

We're not discussing if He was the Messiah, we're discussing his
existence.

The person, or the legend? Jesus the historical man, if indeed he
did exist, has disappeared so neatly into the mists of time that we
can't be certain whether he did or not. Jesus the legend almost
certainly didn't exist.

"Almost Certainly"!
Even I've got to giggle at that!

AH#49 wrote:
Ken Smith wrote:
You Know Who wrote:
In talk.politics.guns Ken Smith wrote:
You Know Who wrote:
In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" wrote:
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
ogle.com...

"Yardpilot" wrote in message
news:zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52...

"Pooched" wrote in message

[snip]

Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
recently went through this.

I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?

Jesus Christ!

Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.

What makes you think He was mythical?

A lack of evidence to support the Christians' most basic truth
claims. While no one actually disputes the erstwhile existence of ElRon
Hubbard, virtually no one outside the $cientology cult seriously
believes that he lived up to their collective biography of him.

Same with Jesus. There probably *was* a man upon whom the legend was
built, but there is no credible evidence that he was a messiah, or even
a reasonable facsimile of same. Therefore, "Jesus Christ" is a myth --
even as Pilate was a historical figure.

We're not discussing if He was the Messiah, we're discussing his
existence.

The person, or the legend? Jesus the historical man, if indeed he
did exist, has disappeared so neatly into the mists of time that we
can't be certain whether he did or not. Jesus the legend almost
certainly didn't exist.

"Almost Certainly"!
Even I've got to giggle at that!

Why? Anything is possible, though some things are a lot more
possible than others.

Ken Smith wrote:

AH#49 wrote:
Ken Smith wrote:
You Know Who wrote:
In talk.politics.guns Ken Smith wrote:
You Know Who wrote:
In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" wrote:
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
ogle.com...

"Yardpilot" wrote in message
news:zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52...

"Pooched" wrote in message

[snip]

Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
recently went through this.

I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?

Jesus Christ!

Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.

What makes you think He was mythical?

A lack of evidence to support the Christians' most basic truth
claims. While no one actually disputes the erstwhile existence of ElRon
Hubbard, virtually no one outside the $cientology cult seriously
believes that he lived up to their collective biography of him.

Same with Jesus. There probably *was* a man upon whom the legend was
built, but there is no credible evidence that he was a messiah, or even
a reasonable facsimile of same. Therefore, "Jesus Christ" is a myth --
even as Pilate was a historical figure.

We're not discussing if He was the Messiah, we're discussing his
existence.

The person, or the legend? Jesus the historical man, if indeed he
did exist, has disappeared so neatly into the mists of time that we
can't be certain whether he did or not. Jesus the legend almost
certainly didn't exist.

"Almost Certainly"!
Even I've got to giggle at that!

Why? Anything is possible, though some things are a lot more
possible than others.

Well, the "legend" most certainly DOES exist, doesn't it?
Otherwise, please explain all those Hundreds of millions that visit
those buildings with Crosses on them every day...'specially on Sunday!

Me?
I have no doubt that a man called Jesus Christ existed way back then.

You Know Who wrote in message ws.com...

What makes you think He was mythical?

It's a matter of faith.

Your faith makes you think He's mythical?

That woudl seem to be as good an argument as one's faith leading
one to believe he was not.

--

FF

In talk.politics.guns (Fred the Red Shirt) wrote:

You Know Who wrote in message ws.com...

What makes you think He was mythical?

It's a matter of faith.

Your faith makes you think He's mythical?

That woudl seem to be as good an argument as one's faith leading
one to believe he was not.

It sure would!

In talk.politics.guns Ken Smith wrote:

You Know Who wrote:
In talk.politics.guns Ken Smith wrote:
You Know Who wrote:
In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" wrote:
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
gle.com...
"Yardpilot" wrote in message
news:zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52...
"Pooched" wrote in message

[snip]

Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
recently went through this.

I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?

Jesus Christ!

Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.

What makes you think He was mythical?

A lack of evidence to support the Christians' most basic truth
claims. While no one actually disputes the erstwhile existence of ElRon
Hubbard, virtually no one outside the $cientology cult seriously
believes that he lived up to their collective biography of him.

Same with Jesus. There probably *was* a man upon whom the legend was
built, but there is no credible evidence that he was a messiah, or even
a reasonable facsimile of same. Therefore, "Jesus Christ" is a myth --
even as Pilate was a historical figure.

We're not discussing if He was the Messiah, we're discussing his
existence.

The person, or the legend?

The person.

Jesus the historical man, if indeed he
did exist, has disappeared so neatly into the mists of time that we
can't be certain whether he did or not.

LOL

Jesus the legend almost certainly didn't exist.

I see

"Yardpilot" wrote in message news:Lvhlc.19681$I%1.1425017@attbi_s51...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"Yardpilot" wrote in message
news:3_Bkc.1303$_41.52280@attbi_s02...

Compare this to some "regimes" that would give the perps medals for
doing crap like this.

Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can get
away
with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone or
support such actions, and punishes the people involved.

It's not that good.

In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.

Do feel free to support your claim.


Its not my claim. The claim was made by the spokesman at a
routine news conference. I'm still looking for actual transcripts
of new conferences. Dunno if they exist. Meanwhile, you
can go to your library and read some back issues of the Post,
assuming you can pullyourself away from FOX TV long enough.

The Washington Post; Oct 7, 2003;

The Washington Post. Washington, D.C.: Dec 26, 2002.


This online article refers to statments by unnamed US officials:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/2003/usa03072003_2.html

Press reports have attributed statements to US officials
that the US is using "all appropriate pressure," that
"prisoners are sometimes kept on their feet for lengthy
periods," and that "stress and duress" techniques are acceptable.

The techniques reportedly employed - including hooding,
holding in prolonged painful positions, and denial of
food and sleep - were cited and condemned as torture
in the 2002 Department of State Country Reports on Human
Rights Practices. This year's report, mandated to be
released to Congress by February 28, has yet to be released.


Please do feel free to conduct your own research, as any
intellectually
honest person would do. Knowing the truth is far more important than
'winning' an argument on UseNet, don't you agree?

That's rotten leadership from the top down.

Two POWs in Afghanistan were beaten to death while in US custody.
...
Do feel free to support your claim.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A42373-2003Mar4&notFound=true



The difference between those incidents and the instant case is
photographs.

If the photographs of My Lai hadn't been published do you really
think Calley would ever have been prosecuted?

Yes.

Do feel free to support your claim.

Their leaders have let them down by condoning and encouraging
incidents such as these.

Nope. Those responsible will be dealt with. BTW, are you aware of who it was
that set the wheels in motion on this matter?

I doubt it. Keeping in mind that nothing has been proven it has
been reported that the soldiers involved (13 as of last count, right?)
received no training and weren't even given copies of the regulations
for handling prisoners. If so, the officers who are responsible
have no defense.

BTW, are you aware of who it was
that set the wheels in motion on this matter?

Yes, the anonymous sources who released the photos, just like My Lai.
The wheels were going in circles befor that.

--

FF

Ken Smith wrote in message ...
You Know Who wrote:

Same with Jesus. There probably *was* a man upon whom the legend was
built..

Probably more than one.

--

FF

"Yardpilot" wrote in message news:3U4lc.14010$kh4.813712@attbi_s52...
"Pooched" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 01 May 2004 07:47:43 GMT, "Yardpilot"
wrote:


"Pooched" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot"
wrote:

Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can
get
away
with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone
or
support such actions, and punishes the people involved.

Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
recently went through this.

I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?


I figured ppl would already know. Here's some links:

http://www.altmuslim.com/politics_co...=1111_0_10_0_C

Doesn't support your claim.


That's a damn lie. Quoting from the article:

Yesterday, a Canadian Muslim who was deported to Syria
while traveling through the US broke his silence...
Arar, who spent a year in Syrian custody, recounted
beatings with shredded cables and being kept in a small,
dark cell...


http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/

Doesn't support your claim.

Another lie. Quoting from the article:

On a stopover in New York as he was returning to
Canada from a vacation in Tunisia in September
2002, U.S. officials detained Arar, claiming he
has links to al-Qaeda, and deported him to Syria,
...
Arar ... said he had been tortured during his incarceration
...

In fact, it makes Canada look rathe bad.

No one said any different, so I presume you make that statement
soley for the purpose of distraction.


http://911review.org/Wiki/Arar,Maher.shtml

Doesn't support your claim.

You're three for three:

Maher Arar, a Canadian citizen born in Syria,
traveling on a Canadian passport ... He was detained
by the the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service
during a stopover in New York.
...
At 3 o'clock in the morning, Arar is deported
on a private jet on which he is the sole passenger,
to Syria via Jordan...

You may choose ot disbelieve Arar and the various others who were
quoted or named as sources. But if you choose to say that these
articles do not support the assertion you are lying.



Interestingly I can't find anything from Amerikan sources.

Then you haven't actually looked.

Allow me:

The Washington Post; Feb 13, 2004; pg. A.26

The Washington Post; Feb 2, 2004; pg. A.17

The Washington Post; Feb 2, 2004; pg. A.16

The Washington Post; Jan 23, 2004; pg. A.17

The Washington Post; Nov 25, 2003

The Washington Post; Nov 20, 2003; pg. A.24

The Washington Post; Nov 19, 2003; pg. A.28

The Washington Post; Nov 12, 2003; pg. A.14

The Washington Post; Nov 5, 2003; pg. A.01


Please feel free to do your own research and report back to us.

--

FF

"Morton Davis" wrote in message news:zeqlc.16667$_41.1056281@attbi_s02...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
m...
"Morton Davis" wrote in message
news:XGblc.11724$IG1.386923@attbi_s04...

In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.


Not by accepted definitions of torture.


Accepted by whom?

Why, the USA, for one.

Wrong, see:

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu2/6/ca...ion-reserv.htm

Did you do ANY research before making your statement?

The UN, apparently, for another.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm

PART I

Article 1

1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture"
means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether
physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person
for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person
information or a confession, punishing him for an act he
or a third person has committed or is suspected of having
committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person,
or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when
such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation
of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official
or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not
include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or
incidental to lawful sanctions.

Did you do ANY research before making your statement?


...
Unless you an show
where they have filed a protest.


You haven't shown that any mechanism exists for 'filing a protest'
nor am I under any obligation to accept any arbitrary standard of
proof dictated by yourself. You are free to do your own research.

However:

http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/hurica...5?opendocument

As far as he could tell, Mr. El Masry said, the
detention regime in Guantanamo violated six or
seven articles of the Convention against Torture.
The Committee had an obligation to address this
problem, Mr. El Masry said, especially since the
second periodic report of the United States to
the Committee was a year and a half overdue.

http://www.salon.com/people/intervie...mary_robinson/

Mary Robinson, the outgoing high commissioner, whose term
ends on the now iconic date of Sept.11. It's common knowledge
that her defense of the Durban Conference against Racism,
which U.S. and Israeli representatives walked out of, her
views on the Israel-Palestine conflict and her condemnation
of the U.S. treatment of prisoners in Camp X-ray at Cuba's
Guantanamo Bay provoked the Bush administration to oppose
the extension of her term.

See also:

http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/view01/C537C6D4657C7928C1256B43003E7D0B?opendocument

Aside from which, you seem to be missing the point.

YOU HAVE NO POINT.

My point is that our leaders have betrayed us by rejecting truth,
justice and the rule of law and attack the very core of the American
way of life.

--

FF