Not to sound like an F-22 cheerleader but I thought this was interesting. . .

"Tom Cooper" wrote in message
...
"Denyav" wrote in message
...
No, that's the difference between pipedreams and reality.


Lets say a seventy years old imported (polite version of stolen)
technology
(stealth) defeated by another seventy years old imported technology.

I wonder why they demonstrate the abilities of f22 aganist f15 (not
designed to
detect stealth targets) and use demonstration results in their PR
campaign?
Why not aganist silent sentry which is designed to detect and track
stealth
targets?

Because the existence of "Grey Bears" is still an official secret, so they
can't talk about F-22 vs MiG-29/Su-27 testing.

And you would be claiming that these "official secret" adversary aircraft
have "silent sentry"..?


Heck even Germans and Brits knew during WWII that significant
backscatterer
reductions were possible by hard body shaping but forward scatterer
reduction
was not.
Now US is learning hard way what Brits and Germans knew sixty years
ago,after
spending zillions of dollars for a dead end technology.

Thats the difference between advanced Nations and advanced Countries.

Should that still be a surprise - after the F/A-18E/F step back?

The USAF and the USN are just re-inventing air-to-air, after they realized
that the F-22 might otherwise get cancelled, and it could happen they to
sit
there with F-22s and Super Horrors and have nothing to tackle all the
Flankers and PAK-FAs any more.

I don't know what is scarier--the thought that you actually think the USN
has joined in this alleged "evil cabal" to save the F/A-22, or the fact that
you are agreeing with a two-ton loon like Denyav in the first place. Would
that be "aviation journalist", or "aviation fantasist"?

Brooks


Tom Cooper
Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian
Vienna, Austria

I wonder why they demonstrate the abilities of f22 aganist f15 (not
designed to
detect stealth targets) and use demonstration results in their PR
campaign?
Why not aganist silent sentry which is designed to detect and track
stealth
targets?

Because the existence of "Grey Bears" is still an official secret, so
they
can't talk about F-22 vs MiG-29/Su-27 testing.

And you would be claiming that these "official secret" adversary aircraft
have "silent sentry"..?

No, just you're running in the front of the car, and so have failed to
understand what that means.

Have you never heard about the Grey Bears as USAF unit?

Heck even Germans and Brits knew during WWII that significant
backscatterer
reductions were possible by hard body shaping but forward scatterer
reduction
was not.
Now US is learning hard way what Brits and Germans knew sixty years
ago,after
spending zillions of dollars for a dead end technology.

Thats the difference between advanced Nations and advanced Countries.

Should that still be a surprise - after the F/A-18E/F step back?

The USAF and the USN are just re-inventing air-to-air, after they
realized
that the F-22 might otherwise get cancelled, and it could happen they to
sit
there with F-22s and Super Horrors and have nothing to tackle all the
Flankers and PAK-FAs any more.

I don't know what is scarier--the thought that you actually think the USN
has joined in this alleged "evil cabal" to save the F/A-22, or the fact
that
you are agreeing with a two-ton loon like Denyav in the first place. Would
that be "aviation journalist", or "aviation fantasist"?

Again the same problem as above: that should have meant "F-15" instead of
"F-22", i.e. it was a typo, but you're so fast in attempting to make me look
silly, you don't even notice this.

Well, I certainly do hope you feel better now. In the meantime I'll continue
reading US and other reports about USAF and USN scrambling to pick up in the
air-to-air race, after being bushwacked on other international exercises....

Tom Cooper
Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian
Vienna, Austria

*************************************************

Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585

African MiGs
http://www.acig.org/afmig/

Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM

*************************************************

"Tom Cooper" wrote in message
...
I wonder why they demonstrate the abilities of f22 aganist f15 (not
designed to
detect stealth targets) and use demonstration results in their PR
campaign?
Why not aganist silent sentry which is designed to detect and track
stealth
targets?

Because the existence of "Grey Bears" is still an official secret, so
they
can't talk about F-22 vs MiG-29/Su-27 testing.

And you would be claiming that these "official secret" adversary
aircraft
have "silent sentry"..?

No, just you're running in the front of the car, and so have failed to
understand what that means.

The statement you were responding to asked, "Why not aganist silent sentry
which is designed to..." and you offered a "Because..." answer. So are you
buying nto this "silent sentry" bit being outfitted onto Russian aircraft
like the Mig-29 and Su-27 or not?


Have you never heard about the Grey Bears as USAF unit?

Heck even Germans and Brits knew during WWII that significant
backscatterer
reductions were possible by hard body shaping but forward scatterer
reduction
was not.
Now US is learning hard way what Brits and Germans knew sixty years
ago,after
spending zillions of dollars for a dead end technology.

Thats the difference between advanced Nations and advanced
Countries.

Should that still be a surprise - after the F/A-18E/F step back?

The USAF and the USN are just re-inventing air-to-air, after they
realized
that the F-22 might otherwise get cancelled, and it could happen they
to
sit
there with F-22s and Super Horrors and have nothing to tackle all the
Flankers and PAK-FAs any more.

I don't know what is scarier--the thought that you actually think the
USN
has joined in this alleged "evil cabal" to save the F/A-22, or the fact
that
you are agreeing with a two-ton loon like Denyav in the first place.
Would
that be "aviation journalist", or "aviation fantasist"?

Again the same problem as above: that should have meant "F-15" instead of
"F-22", i.e. it was a typo, but you're so fast in attempting to make me
look
silly, you don't even notice this.

You have lumped the USN into the "save the F/A-22" cabal you posited with
your, "The USAF and the USN are just re-inventing air-to-air..." bit. Pray
tell what the USN's big piece of the F/A-22 fight is?

Brooks


Well, I certainly do hope you feel better now. In the meantime I'll
continue
reading US and other reports about USAF and USN scrambling to pick up in
the
air-to-air race, after being bushwacked on other international
exercises....

Tom Cooper
Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian
Vienna, Austria

*************************************************

Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585

African MiGs
http://www.acig.org/afmig/

Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM

*************************************************

And you would be claiming that these "official secret" adversary
aircraft
have "silent sentry"..?

No, just you're running in the front of the car, and so have failed to
understand what that means.

The statement you were responding to asked, "Why not aganist silent sentry
which is designed to..." and you offered a "Because..." answer. So are you
buying nto this "silent sentry" bit being outfitted onto Russian aircraft
like the Mig-29 and Su-27 or not?

Yes, I see you have a considerable problem with understanding this.

Now, think for a while: if the USAF is not even reporting about testing of
F-22s against MiG-29s and Su-27s (at home), so, in which World do you live
to expect from them to report about testing much more exotic stuff?


I don't know what is scarier--the thought that you actually think the
USN
has joined in this alleged "evil cabal" to save the F/A-22, or the
fact
that
you are agreeing with a two-ton loon like Denyav in the first place.
Would
that be "aviation journalist", or "aviation fantasist"?

Again the same problem as above: that should have meant "F-15" instead
of
"F-22", i.e. it was a typo, but you're so fast in attempting to make me
look
silly, you don't even notice this.

You have lumped the USN into the "save the F/A-22" cabal you posited with
your, "The USAF and the USN are just re-inventing air-to-air..." bit. Pray
tell what the USN's big piece of the F/A-22 fight is?

Sigh... OK. Let's try it one more time, this time with the type corrected
(and, don't worry: you'll get it sooner or later):

The USAF and the USN are just re-inventing air-to-air, after they realized
that the F-22 might otherwise get cancelled, and it could happen they to sit
there with _F-15s_ and Super Horrors and have nothing to tackle all the
Flankers and PAK-FAs any more.

And I hope you'll not come to the same idea again and think that the USN
expects its Super Horrors to fight for air superiority in any kind of other
scenario but battling Congo, Liberia, or Somalia...?

Tom Cooper
Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian
Vienna, Austria

*************************************************

Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585

African MiGs
http://www.acig.org/afmig/

Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM

*************************************************

"Tom Cooper" wrote in message
...

And you would be claiming that these "official secret" adversary
aircraft
have "silent sentry"..?

No, just you're running in the front of the car, and so have failed to
understand what that means.

The statement you were responding to asked, "Why not aganist silent
sentry
which is designed to..." and you offered a "Because..." answer. So are
you
buying nto this "silent sentry" bit being outfitted onto Russian
aircraft
like the Mig-29 and Su-27 or not?

Yes, I see you have a considerable problem with understanding this.

Now, think for a while: if the USAF is not even reporting about testing of
F-22s against MiG-29s and Su-27s (at home), so, in which World do you live
to expect from them to report about testing much more exotic stuff?

That is NOT what you said. To the query about why they were not
testing/publiscizing the F/A-22 against "silent sentry", you said, "Because
the existence of "Grey Bears" is still an official secret, so they can't
talk about F-22 vs MiG-29/Su-27 testing." You did not say, "They can't even
talk about Mig/Su testing, so why would you expect them to be able to
discuss testing against even more exotic systems". Silent Sentry is, AFAIK,
a ground based system as yet (and a US system to boot)--why you would even
introduce the Mig-29/Su-27 argument into the mix is beyond understanding.



I don't know what is scarier--the thought that you actually think
the
USN
has joined in this alleged "evil cabal" to save the F/A-22, or the
fact
that
you are agreeing with a two-ton loon like Denyav in the first place.
Would
that be "aviation journalist", or "aviation fantasist"?

Again the same problem as above: that should have meant "F-15" instead
of
"F-22", i.e. it was a typo, but you're so fast in attempting to make
me
look
silly, you don't even notice this.

You have lumped the USN into the "save the F/A-22" cabal you posited
with
your, "The USAF and the USN are just re-inventing air-to-air..." bit.
Pray
tell what the USN's big piece of the F/A-22 fight is?

Sigh... OK. Let's try it one more time, this time with the type corrected
(and, don't worry: you'll get it sooner or later):

The USAF and the USN are just re-inventing air-to-air, after they realized
that the F-22 might otherwise get cancelled, and it could happen they to
sit
there with _F-15s_ and Super Horrors and have nothing to tackle all the
Flankers and PAK-FAs any more.

And I hope you'll not come to the same idea again and think that the USN
expects its Super Horrors to fight for air superiority in any kind of
other
scenario but battling Congo, Liberia, or Somalia...?

Once again--why are you claiming the USN is seriously interested in
preserving the F/A-22, as they are "reinventing air-to-air, after they
(inclusive) realized the F-22 (sic) might be cancelled, and it could happen
they to sit (sic??)..."?

Brooks

Tom Cooper

And you would be claiming that these "official secret" adversary aircraft
have "silent sentry"..?

Silent Sentry an airborne system? I did not know that.Anyway thats a big chance
for you to become a very rich person.
Just send your airborne silent sentry proposal to Phillips labs,they trying to
develop an airborne (UCAV) for Air Force.
I am sure they will appreciate your help.

Good Luck

On 01 Jun 2004 22:02:28 GMT, (Denyav) wrote:

And you would be claiming that these "official secret" adversary aircraft
have "silent sentry"..?

IIRC Celldar is being fitted/trialled into an aircraft!!!, There you
go a totally passive receiver, aircraft mouinted...

Up to you if you think thats relevent!!

Cheers


Silent Sentry an airborne system? I did not know that.Anyway thats a big chance
for you to become a very rich person.
Just send your airborne silent sentry proposal to Phillips labs,they trying to
develop an airborne (UCAV) for Air Force.
I am sure they will appreciate your help.

Good Luck

John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

Brooks,
you can jump around each and every word that I say, yet, the point is this:
in no way are you going to hear about what the USAF is testing _right now_.
Forget about this.

So, all this semantic about the silent sentry is useless: you can't know
what are they doing. The USAF is, just for example, testing hypersonic
vehicles already since the early 1990s. Several different (manned and
unmanned) types were developed and tested in flight. Yet, nothing was ever
officially acknowledged or confirmed. There are more MiG-29s operational
with the USAF than in most smaller air forces that fly the type. Guess what?
Nothing was ever officially acknowledged and confirmed about this either.
Stuff like AIM-9X is far further in the R+D process than reported in the
last two years: actually, when I compare what I read in some papers and what
do I hear via private channels, the F-22 is at least one year ahead in
testing to what is currently reported as planned or being underway too. And
this despite the fact that the avionics - all of which is functioning via
the same system - is frequently suffering total failures, so that some of
the test-pilots had to carry their cell-phones in the cockpit, to call the
base and ask which way to fly back when the system crashes.

But you guys here wonder how it comes the F-22 is not reported to have been
tested against silent sentry and such stuff?

Don't wonder, but wait for the news. That's my opinion. We all don't know
what are they currently doing, nor really in which world are they living: we
only get to hear about few tid-bits when it's - actually - too late. So, you
can - at best - GUESS if they have (or not) tested the silent sentry.

Re other stuff: I still haven't found a place where I should have said the
USN is, "seriously interested in preserving the F-22", but as said, we'll
solve this problem too.

I said the USAF and the USN have realized that currently available
air-to-air assets are not up to the task any more. Worst yet - at least in
the case of the USN - even the newest fighter (which proved to have been the
wrong solution in anything but pilot comfort and flying safety) - is not up
to the task. So there is now an urgent need to field the AIM-9X, and then to
get the AIM-120D, so to compensate for short range, slow speed, and lack of
manoeuverability of the F/A-18E/F. That, however, is only to cover a part of
the problem: the type is going to remain unable of fighting the "outer
battle" the way the F-14 could do, and especially against modern threats,
because even longer-ranged missiles (or, what's more important: weapons with
wider envelope) cannot compensate for deficiencies of the aircraft. At the
time the potential enemies are fielding large numbers of superior aircraft,
armed with almost equal weapons and supported by similar network in the
background, this eliminates quite a few of USN's options: you can't start a
war, for example, fighting somebody only with a single carrier carrying one
squadron of F/A-18E/Fs and three squadrons of F/A-18Cs - except you're
fighting a bunch of terrorists in Asian mountains or the African bush.
Anything else is not going to function with assets at hand.

Something similar can be said for the USAF: there is a large gap in the
quality between such an asset like B-2 and the F-15. One can start a war and
deliver the main blow with B-2s, but the gap is closing - if it's not
already closed - on the F-15. On the other side, despite their immense
capabilities the B-2 have proven not to be able to completely shut down the
enemy air. Consequently, you have a situation where there is a need for a
measure in between: what a better PR for F-22 one needs? Given that the F-22
is an endangered species, and the JSF is - still - not fix (but also never
to offer a similar capability), there is now so much "good PR" for the
Raptor. If the USN is then also releasing signals that it needs a
longer-ranged solution - that better, for both services (and without the USN
being "interested in preserving the F-22": they're interested in saving what
they can of their own assets, first and foremost).

So, in the context of the original message to which I responded: it is not
surprising that billions were spent for wrong systems in other fields.
Something similar was done in such a well-known arena like air-to-air too.
Worst yet: currently there are attempts to save what can be saved, but all
of this is rather a reaction than a proper action.

Just give me a call if I have to explain this for the fourth time too.

Tom Cooper
Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian
Vienna, Austria

*************************************************

Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585

African MiGs
http://www.acig.org/afmig/

Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM

*************************************************

"Tom Cooper" wrote in message
...
Brooks,
you can jump around each and every word that I say, yet, the point is
this:
in no way are you going to hear about what the USAF is testing _right
now_.
Forget about this.

Hem guy, you ought to know that the ONLY way we have of knowing what you
MEAN is by what you WRITE. In this case, you came in with the view that
"silent sentry" was somehow tied to some apocryphal USAF adversary aircraft
unit--it ain't. Then you came out and stated that the USN was somehow
seriously tied into trying to keep the F/A-22 alive. If you want to bang
someone over the head, look in the freakin' mirror and do a better job of
wordsmithing--as a self-aggrandizing "freelance aviation journalist" you
should be able to communicate your thoughts in an intelligible manner.

Brooks

snip further obfuscation

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 07:15:20 GMT, "Tom Cooper" wrote:

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
No, that's the difference between pipedreams and reality.


Lets say a seventy years old imported (polite version of stolen)
technology
(stealth) defeated by another seventy years old imported technology.

I wonder why they demonstrate the abilities of f22 aganist f15 (not
designed to
detect stealth targets) and use demonstration results in their PR
campaign?
Why not aganist silent sentry which is designed to detect and track
stealth
targets?

Because the existence of "Grey Bears" is still an official secret, so they
can't talk about F-22 vs MiG-29/Su-27 testing.

Heck even Germans and Brits knew during WWII that significant
backscatterer
reductions were possible by hard body shaping but forward scatterer
reduction
was not.
Now US is learning hard way what Brits and Germans knew sixty years
ago,after
spending zillions of dollars for a dead end technology.

Thats the difference between advanced Nations and advanced Countries.

Should that still be a surprise - after the F/A-18E/F step back?

The USAF and the USN are just re-inventing air-to-air, after they realized
that the F-22 might otherwise get cancelled, and it could happen they to sit
there with F-22s and Super Horrors and have nothing to tackle all the
Flankers and PAK-FAs any more.

Tom Cooper
Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian
Vienna, Austria

*********************************************** **

Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585

African MiGs
http://www.acig.org/afmig/

Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM

*********************************************** **

The USAF and the USMC/USN aircraft are, by a large margin, the best
in the world. The rumored "multi-static" radars are vapor ware, and the
"new" Russian aircraft are either simply rumors or prototypes that will
never enter production. The F-22 and F-35 will give the US Military
absolute air dominance.

Sorry that the facts interfere with your anti-US ravings.

Al Minyard