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#71
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Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross
"gatt" wrote in message
news:U9OdnTKE2-HpTZrVnZ2dnUVZ_vyinZ2d@integraonline... WingFlaps wrote: On Apr 18, 8:39 am, gatt wrote: I think pretty much anybody who's ever flown a C-172 on a warm summer day, with more than one passenger, has pushed it near or over gross. You people need to go on diets! The 172 should be a 3 seater with full fuel (144l)... Unfortunately, too true. Under the pilot's storm window on a B-17 is a placard with the maximum crew weight: 1200 lbs. Let's see: 10 men in uniform, bunny suits, flight suits, boots, gloves, mae west, parachute and harness, body armor, flak helmet... I went to a park on Sunday with my wife and noted that previous generations would be absolutely stunned by the average American's physical condition nowadays. An old 96th BG waistgunner/armorer told me one time that they would sneak in extra ammunition for the long raids, but if the pilots found out they'd make 'em offload it. So they ditched the fire extinguishers, waist and radio room windows and just about everything else nonessential and replaced it with a steel plate on the floor of the waist, and whatever extra ammo could be slipped onboard in the tail without the pilots finding out. "Aft of CG limit" apparently meant nothing to gunners. (Also mentioned using their oxygen masks to keep cigarettes lit on the way to Schweinfurt.) -c I must admit that I failed to read the placards in the Aluminum Overcast, but I doubt that anyone other than the ball gunner would have been under 120 pounds even back then--and I have my doubts about him as well. Peter |
#72
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Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross
Michael wrote:
On Apr 17, 1:54*pm, WingFlaps wrote: Are you saying you don't do a MAUW test flight in your training? That is exactly what he is saying. It's also pretty normal these days to get a license in a 4-seater (Skyhawk or Warrior) without ever having anyone in the back seat or coming anywhere near gross weight. Midway thru the PPL my CFI took me out on a hot afternoon with full tanks and someone in the back (C172). All we did was pattern work to "illustrate" weight, density altitude and me being miserable in a greenhouse aircraft. One of the best lessons of my life! |
#73
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Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross
gliderguynj wrote:
At this point in the thread I'd be very curious to find out the actual Real World weight of everything....as opposed to the original posters assumption's. Have the buddies get on a scale, with clothes and shoes on, watches, wallets keys, a full stomach a few cups of coffee each.... Do the same for the luggage. Don't forget to add all the extra headsets, camera's, water bottles..... It might be a useful example for all reading. I'd almost guarantee it's far heavier than the numbers being used. I can't tell you how many times people show up at the field for a ride and they say they weigh 200 and they easily have 30 or 40 lbs on me and I'm 200!!! I know when I do the W&B I automatically put in an extra 10# in the baggage area and an extra 15# for the pax before I ask weights. I don't trust anyone. |
#74
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Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross
"gliderguynj" wrote in message ... On Apr 17, 12:32 pm, B A R R Y wrote: Then there's ethical... Well said Sir. The passenger is entrusting their life in your hands. When I take a passenger up in a glider, I understand what a huge responsibility that is. Reminds me of the Cokehead pilot that killed that singer Brandy? flying to the Bahamas over gross and impaired on drugs. He might have had the same reasoning...ah just a bit over gross, so the climb out will be sluggish.... I think this is a good thread. Doug If you're thinking of the same crash that I am, the aircraft was way, way, way out of aft cg limits and would have killed them without regard to the rest. And yes, there were more than enough other problems... (The original question has been beaten to death as it is.) Peter |
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Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross
On Apr 18, 9:20*am, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
Even if the airplane is perfectly airworthy, and all maintenance done properly, you don't know if the engine is producing 160HP (or whatever the rated power for your airplane). There is no signature in the logbook that certifies that the airplane engine has been tested and found to produce the specified power. I have flown rentals that flew like a 120HP Cessna instead of a 160 HP. RPM can't tell you the true power because every airplane uses a different pitch prop. Well if the renter is slappin' on any old prop then you should not go there. How does a 120 HP 172 reach cruise airspeed at cruise RPM? Cheers |
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Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross
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#77
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Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross
Peter Dohm wrote:
Well said Sir. The passenger is entrusting their life in your hands. When I take a passenger up in a glider, I understand what a huge responsibility that is. Reminds me of the Cokehead pilot that killed that singer Brandy? flying to the Bahamas over gross and impaired on drugs. He might have had the same reasoning...ah just a bit over gross, so the climb out will be sluggish.... If you're thinking of the same crash that I am, the aircraft was way, way, way out of aft cg limits and would have killed them without regard to the rest. And yes, there were more than enough other problems... I used to fly in and out of that airport (Marsh Harbour, Abaco Island) several times a year and remember the crash fairly well. The pilot's coke use wasn't a factor although it surely didn't help. The basic problem was too much beef on board (9 SOB on a C-402), along with a ton of other crap. The pilot tried to talk them out of it but they pitched such a bitch he gave in. A few minutes later they were all dead. And it was Aaliyah, not Brandy. Ordinarily there was nothing wrong with that airport although density altitude could always raise its ugly head. The runway was a good 5000 feet long by either 100 or 150 feet wide and paved. -- Mortimer Schnerd, RN mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com |
#78
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Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross
tman wrote:
Flown C172's for quite a while, and never had anybody in the back. Now I'm planning on quite a trip, with 2 pax and luggage. When I fill the fuel to the *tabs*, calc everyone's weight honestly and consider baggage -- I'm 75 lbs over the 2450 gross on departure. Maybe 100 over gross if I assume a "lie about weight" factor or some inaccuracy with filling the tanks. Now I'm scratching my head about just how risky this is. I know (others) have pushed over gross in these planes way more under worse conditions, and have almost always gotten away with it. I'm inclined to just do it, and be cognizant that it will perform differently, i.e. don't expect the same picture on climbout that you would when solo. Risky? Or just roundoff error on the weight? Here are some other factors: This is the 160HP C172, standard. Departure runway is 5000'. No steep terrain to climb out of. Plenty of alternates along with the way with 3000 runways. Not particularly hot, humid, or high. 50 degrees at 1000 MSL for departure or any point of landing. I'm figuring I'm 3% over gross, causing most of my V speeds to increase 1.5%, so say -- instead of flying short final at 65 knots, I'd fly at 66 knots... OK wait I can't hold airspeed to +/- 1 knot on most days anyways. I'm thinking through many of the factors, and it is only a "little" over gross, only on the first hour or so of the trip. What else should I be aware of? Am I dangerous? T I worked for a large insurance adjusting firm in Canada many years ago. I had to hand deliver a denial of claim letter to a small time operator whose stock in trade was to hire low time commercial pilots and bully them into ignoring the gross weight limits. The aircraft in question was a float equipped Helio Courier. The right wing departed the airframe during an approach to landing. A fisherman witnessed the whole thing. It crashed into the trees. Four people (including the 19 year old pilot) were killed. We were able to determine that the aircraft was 350 pounds over it's gross weight limit at the time of the crash. We calculated it was about 500 hundred ponds OG when it took off. The company went out of business shortly thereafter. Their insurance contract was cancelled "ab initio" (a Lloyd's term for "at inception" or "from the beginning") and once that happens good luck trying to find another provider. Don't fly *any* aircraft over its gross weight limit. The pilot was held personally responsible for the accident and had he survived, would have faced a number of liability claims. |
#79
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Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross
On Apr 18, 12:22 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
george writes: One of my students (years ago) spent a summer in Antarctic Part of his job (research) was counting livestock under the ice. In a 3/8 inch full wetsuit !!!! Is there a lot of livestock beneath the ice? Are you volunteering? But then you're an odd fish |
#80
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Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross
dont let those fatties stop at a donut shopnb haha :|
After serious thinking tman wrote : Flown C172's for quite a while, and never had anybody in the back. Now I'm planning on quite a trip, with 2 pax and luggage. When I fill the fuel to the *tabs*, calc everyone's weight honestly and consider baggage -- I'm 75 lbs over the 2450 gross on departure. Maybe 100 over gross if I assume a "lie about weight" factor or some inaccuracy with filling the tanks. Now I'm scratching my head about just how risky this is. I know (others) have pushed over gross in these planes way more under worse conditions, and have almost always gotten away with it. I'm inclined to just do it, and be cognizant that it will perform differently, i.e. don't expect the same picture on climbout that you would when solo. Risky? Or just roundoff error on the weight? Here are some other factors: This is the 160HP C172, standard. Departure runway is 5000'. No steep terrain to climb out of. Plenty of alternates along with the way with 3000 runways. Not particularly hot, humid, or high. 50 degrees at 1000 MSL for departure or any point of landing. I'm figuring I'm 3% over gross, causing most of my V speeds to increase 1.5%, so say -- instead of flying short final at 65 knots, I'd fly at 66 knots... OK wait I can't hold airspeed to +/- 1 knot on most days anyways. I'm thinking through many of the factors, and it is only a "little" over gross, only on the first hour or so of the trip. What else should I be aware of? Am I dangerous? T |
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