CNN article on problems in Air Travel, as seen by FAA

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:07:47 -0400, NotPC
wrote:


Wouldn't make any difference since everyone just laughs at idiots like
you anyway


All you can do is name call rather than converse with
intelligence. You must have a PhD from the Jesse Jackson
School of Race Card Extortion. Congratulation's! your
ignorance is exposed for all too see sir.

You haven't shown one ounce of intelligence in your raving, ranting
posts. And certainly no proof. You have simply blathered out the KKK
mantra of bull****.


BTW, my ass is not fat. I work for a living

My mistake. It was your head planted up your ass that expanded it so
I mistook it for being fat.

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:18:24 -0500, "Allen"
wrote:

"John Kulp" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:47:54 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:


Jet fuel is basically kerosene, which is used for multiple purposes.
You don't tax industries for fuel per se, but all users of the
product. I don't think kerosene has every been taxed much, unlike
gas. Everyone pays whatever the tax is on this.

Do you not even read what you respond to?

The post from Allen above shows you that the Jet Fuel Tax for GA is
$0.218/gal. The same fuel used by Airlines is $0.043/gal.



Yeah. That's why I said they pay whatever the tax is. I didn't
realize from his desciption that only the $0.43 tax was the only tax
airlines paid, though (it is actually $0.44). Who pays the second
tax? I thought that was airlines as well, but apparently not.

You need to put the decimal point in the correct spot - $.044 (four and
four-tenths cents) per gallon for airlines. The segment and ticket tax is
collected from the passengers, not paid by the airlines.


That's true. I've been pushing too many numbers today.

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:36:41 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:

(John Kulp) wrote in
:

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:30:32 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:



Apparently, you have never heard of approach control, ground
control, or departure control.


Have heard of them and even use them at times. Unless you
are IFR,
they are NOT needed at a vast majority of airports in the United
States. Most airports in the U.S. do not have a control tower, and
many of those who do do not have a 24 hour control tower. No local or
ground controllers. No ground control.

These aren't the airports that have much traffic or are the problem.
Those are major airports, which do have ATC.

And it is because of the AIRLINE traffic at those airports that ATC is
needed there. GA is less than 5% of the operations at these airports. It
is not GA that wants to have 59 operations at ORD from 8 PM to 8:14 PM
every day. It is the airlines.

Sure that's true alright. I was just commenting on where ATC is
located, that's all.



Even IFR, unless you are in the area of major airports, you
may very
well not have TRACON, ground, or local control. You take off with a
clearance void time obtained from an RCO or relayed by FSS and once at
sufficient altitude talk directly to the ARTCC for your location.

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft. But
then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why, exactly,
are the majors talking about their customers paying almost all the
freight then?

Because the majors are in a panic over the VLJ and fractional jets.
The potential of the VLJ to siphon off the first & business class
customers, which is where the profit is, terrifies the majors. This whole
fee talk is about how to price these flights out of the market so the
premium customers will continue to fly with the airlines.

Where does this come from? This has already happened and the majors
are selling plenty of business and first seats anyway. I don't see
them panicking, just adjusting to changing market conditions,

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:09:36 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:

John Kulp wrote:


Nothing confusing about all this is there?

No not really. It has worked for YEARS. It allows the airlines to
pass on a cost directly to their passengers without a whole lot of
trouble because it is a /pax tax.

It is if you're not used to it.


Well it has been there for years so the only folks that aren't used to it
are those that don't fly on airlines in the USA.

That's true. I have known about it for years because it gets
routinely ripped off to fund the general deficit instead of going to
airport improvement. I didn't know the amount, however.

(John Kulp) wrote in
:

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:36:41 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:

(John Kulp) wrote in
:

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:30:32 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:



Apparently, you have never heard of approach control, ground
control, or departure control.


Have heard of them and even use them at times. Unless you
are IFR,
they are NOT needed at a vast majority of airports in the United
States. Most airports in the U.S. do not have a control tower, and
many of those who do do not have a 24 hour control tower. No local
or ground controllers. No ground control.

These aren't the airports that have much traffic or are the problem.
Those are major airports, which do have ATC.

And it is because of the AIRLINE traffic at those airports
that ATC is
needed there. GA is less than 5% of the operations at these airports.
It is not GA that wants to have 59 operations at ORD from 8 PM to
8:14 PM every day. It is the airlines.

Sure that's true alright. I was just commenting on where ATC is
located, that's all.



Even IFR, unless you are in the area of major airports, you
may very
well not have TRACON, ground, or local control. You take off with a
clearance void time obtained from an RCO or relayed by FSS and once
at sufficient altitude talk directly to the ARTCC for your location.

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft.
But then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why,
exactly, are the majors talking about their customers paying almost
all the freight then?

Because the majors are in a panic over the VLJ and fractional
jets.
The potential of the VLJ to siphon off the first & business class
customers, which is where the profit is, terrifies the majors. This
whole fee talk is about how to price these flights out of the market
so the premium customers will continue to fly with the airlines.

Where does this come from? This has already happened and the majors
are selling plenty of business and first seats anyway. I don't see
them panicking, just adjusting to changing market conditions,


Fractional jets are here and they are starting to siphon some business
away from the airlines. The VLJ's aren't here yet. The projections for
the VLJ market, if correct, will put a severe dent in the airline's premium
passenger traffic. Take a trip of say 1,000 miles or so. You can go to
your nearby local airport and get a VLJ to fly direct to a nearby local
airport at your destination. No requirement to be at the airport 2 hours
before departure, no restrictions on liquids in your carry-on baggage, no
TSA, no long drive to/from the airport served by the major, no dealing with
connections at the hub, and the VLJ air taxi comes/goes on your schedule,
not the airline's. The airlines can't do any of this and that's why they
are terrified. The only way they can compete is to make it prohibatively
expensive to fly on a VLJ.

Look at an area like White Plains, NY with all the corporate HQs
there. How many of the business / first class passengers would rather go
to HPN and fly directly to their destination vs. having to drive to LGA,
JFK, or EWR? Only the top executives get the company jet, the others need
to go via airlines. If they had VLJ service at a cost of a first class
ticket, would they bother to go via the major?

How many first or business class tickets are really sold? I've been
on flights where the first class cabin was full but most passengers were
there on a mileage or frequent flyer upgrades. Those passengers who did
pay full fare would be more than happy to fly on a VLJ and avoid the
airline hassle completly, and those are the passengers the airlines are
worried about.

I know one person who always flies first class and he said he would
gladly pay 20% more for the convenience of a VLJ. And he even dislikes
small airplanes! The airlines can't compete with the VLJ. They know it.
So they need a way to escalate the costs for the VLJ so high that people
will not go to it, and the fee system is their solution.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

On Sep 13, 6:00 pm, (John Kulp) wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:07:47 -0400, NotPC
wrote:

BTW, my ass is not fat. I work for a living

My mistake. It was your head planted up your ass that expanded it so
I mistook it for being fat.

LOL.... Gold!

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:50:33 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:



Fractional jets are here and they are starting to siphon some business
away from the airlines. The VLJ's aren't here yet. The projections for
the VLJ market, if correct, will put a severe dent in the airline's premium
passenger traffic. Take a trip of say 1,000 miles or so. You can go to
your nearby local airport and get a VLJ to fly direct to a nearby local
airport at your destination. No requirement to be at the airport 2 hours
before departure, no restrictions on liquids in your carry-on baggage, no
TSA, no long drive to/from the airport served by the major, no dealing with
connections at the hub, and the VLJ air taxi comes/goes on your schedule,
not the airline's. The airlines can't do any of this and that's why they
are terrified. The only way they can compete is to make it prohibatively
expensive to fly on a VLJ.

What you say is true, except I don't know of any majors looking at
serving this market. The closest I know of are regional jets which
only have economy seats. At least the ones I know. So why would it
terrify them? CO, for example, has long de-emphasized this market as
unprofitable and has concentrate on expanding internationally. All
the others are doing the same. They aren't terrified, they are just
looking at different markets where these guys can't compete.


Look at an area like White Plains, NY with all the corporate HQs
there. How many of the business / first class passengers would rather go
to HPN and fly directly to their destination vs. having to drive to LGA,
JFK, or EWR? Only the top executives get the company jet, the others need
to go via airlines. If they had VLJ service at a cost of a first class
ticket, would they bother to go via the major?

They presumably wouldn't which is why the majors are doing what I
described above. Two different markets entirely.


How many first or business class tickets are really sold? I've been
on flights where the first class cabin was full but most passengers were
there on a mileage or frequent flyer upgrades. Those passengers who did
pay full fare would be more than happy to fly on a VLJ and avoid the
airline hassle completly, and those are the passengers the airlines are
worried about.

No they're not for the reasons I give above. There are still plenty
of full paying premium passengers which the majors are competing for,
not these guys.


I know one person who always flies first class and he said he would
gladly pay 20% more for the convenience of a VLJ. And he even dislikes
small airplanes! The airlines can't compete with the VLJ. They know it.
So they need a way to escalate the costs for the VLJ so high that people
will not go to it, and the fee system is their solution.

Sorry two different markets, as I said.

(John Kulp) wrote in
:

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:50:33 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:



Fractional jets are here and they are starting to siphon some
business
away from the airlines. The VLJ's aren't here yet. The projections
for the VLJ market, if correct, will put a severe dent in the
airline's premium passenger traffic. Take a trip of say 1,000 miles
or so. You can go to your nearby local airport and get a VLJ to fly
direct to a nearby local airport at your destination. No requirement
to be at the airport 2 hours before departure, no restrictions on
liquids in your carry-on baggage, no TSA, no long drive to/from the
airport served by the major, no dealing with connections at the hub,
and the VLJ air taxi comes/goes on your schedule, not the airline's.
The airlines can't do any of this and that's why they are terrified.
The only way they can compete is to make it prohibatively expensive to
fly on a VLJ.

What you say is true, except I don't know of any majors looking at
serving this market. The closest I know of are regional jets which
only have economy seats. At least the ones I know. So why would it
terrify them? CO, for example, has long de-emphasized this market as
unprofitable and has concentrate on expanding internationally. All
the others are doing the same. They aren't terrified, they are just
looking at different markets where these guys can't compete.

What market are you referring to? Flights of 3 hours or less? There
are a lot of flights on the majors from 1 to 3 hours and they are not using
regional jets on all of them. I've flown DEN to SFO/SJC on everything from
737/A320 up to 777 and 747. My last flight, scheduled for 1:20 was on a
737.


Look at an area like White Plains, NY with all the corporate
HQs
there. How many of the business / first class passengers would rather
go to HPN and fly directly to their destination vs. having to drive to
LGA, JFK, or EWR? Only the top executives get the company jet, the
others need to go via airlines. If they had VLJ service at a cost of
a first class ticket, would they bother to go via the major?

They presumably wouldn't which is why the majors are doing what I
described above. Two different markets entirely.


How many first or business class tickets are really sold?
I've been
on flights where the first class cabin was full but most passengers
were there on a mileage or frequent flyer upgrades. Those passengers
who did pay full fare would be more than happy to fly on a VLJ and
avoid the airline hassle completly, and those are the passengers the
airlines are worried about.

No they're not for the reasons I give above. There are still plenty
of full paying premium passengers which the majors are competing for,
not these guys.


I know one person who always flies first class and he said he
would
gladly pay 20% more for the convenience of a VLJ. And he even
dislikes small airplanes! The airlines can't compete with the VLJ.
They know it. So they need a way to escalate the costs for the VLJ so
high that people will not go to it, and the fee system is their
solution.

Sorry two different markets, as I said.


Even though the majors don't serve these markets directly, indirectly
they do and derive revenue from them. And that revenue, mainly the premium
first/business class revenue, is what they will no longer get. (They will
continued to get the coach revenue.) The key thing is that this revenue is
from a market they don't even serve or want to serve.

Some major corporations have installations in areas the majors no
longer want to serve, never did serve, or only provide service to a hub.
The majors didn't care because prior to fractional jets and the VLJ there
were no real alternatives. They got the business anyway. The top executives
at large corporation got the company jet while everyone else either took a
commuter flight or drove to the nearest airport served by the majors (which
could be a 2+ hour drive) and then flew with a major to the destination,
even when the destination was less than 3 hours away. Or, the only end to
end service the majors offered was via a hub, no other viable choice was
available.

With the advent of the fractional jet, this started to change.
Smaller companies could now afford corporate jets for their executives,
slightly cutting into the majors premium revenue. But this was generally
restricted to the top executives, so the impact, while not trivial, wasn't
too bad on the majors, but they did notice it. Soon the VLJ's will be
providing more alternatives and at a cost which will permit middle level
exeuctives or even lower (basically anyone who is permitted to fly first or
business class) to justify using them. Couple this with the hassle of
flying on a scheduled airline today, especially if a hub is involved, and
this not so insignificant premium traffic will be lost to the majors. And
this lost revenue will not be because the majors decreased or discontinued
service to a small market. The majors never serviced the market yet they
got revenue from it.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:38:56 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:


What you say is true, except I don't know of any majors looking at
serving this market. The closest I know of are regional jets which
only have economy seats. At least the ones I know. So why would it
terrify them? CO, for example, has long de-emphasized this market as
unprofitable and has concentrate on expanding internationally. All
the others are doing the same. They aren't terrified, they are just
looking at different markets where these guys can't compete.

What market are you referring to? Flights of 3 hours or less? There
are a lot of flights on the majors from 1 to 3 hours and they are not using
regional jets on all of them. I've flown DEN to SFO/SJC on everything from
737/A320 up to 777 and 747. My last flight, scheduled for 1:20 was on a
737.

Mainly the international ones. The domestic ones have been marginally
profitable for years, which is why CO expanded over 25% after 9/11
while others contracted some 10+ %.


I know one person who always flies first class and he said he
would
gladly pay 20% more for the convenience of a VLJ. And he even
dislikes small airplanes! The airlines can't compete with the VLJ.
They know it. So they need a way to escalate the costs for the VLJ so
high that people will not go to it, and the fee system is their
solution.

Sorry two different markets, as I said.


Even though the majors don't serve these markets directly, indirectly
they do and derive revenue from them. And that revenue, mainly the premium
first/business class revenue, is what they will no longer get. (They will
continued to get the coach revenue.) The key thing is that this revenue is
from a market they don't even serve or want to serve.

I don't know what you mean. How does an airline derive revenue for
indirect markets?


Some major corporations have installations in areas the majors no
longer want to serve, never did serve, or only provide service to a hub.
The majors didn't care because prior to fractional jets and the VLJ there
were no real alternatives. They got the business anyway. The top executives
at large corporation got the company jet while everyone else either took a
commuter flight or drove to the nearest airport served by the majors (which
could be a 2+ hour drive) and then flew with a major to the destination,
even when the destination was less than 3 hours away. Or, the only end to
end service the majors offered was via a hub, no other viable choice was
available.

This is all domestic, as I said, which the majors have been cutting
for some time to reposition internationally.


With the advent of the fractional jet, this started to change.
Smaller companies could now afford corporate jets for their executives,
slightly cutting into the majors premium revenue. But this was generally
restricted to the top executives, so the impact, while not trivial, wasn't
too bad on the majors, but they did notice it. Soon the VLJ's will be
providing more alternatives and at a cost which will permit middle level
exeuctives or even lower (basically anyone who is permitted to fly first or
business class) to justify using them. Couple this with the hassle of
flying on a scheduled airline today, especially if a hub is involved, and
this not so insignificant premium traffic will be lost to the majors. And
this lost revenue will not be because the majors decreased or discontinued
service to a small market. The majors never serviced the market yet they
got revenue from it.

Well, since they haven't been interested in these marginal markets for
some time, and, at best serve them with regional jets or not at all, I
don't understand what you think they are losing. It's just another
market being served by these others you mentioned. Major airlines
bookings are at all time records.

In article ,
says...


http://us.cnn.com/2007/US/09/11/airl...ing/index.html

"He blamed resistance from environmentalists for the government's
failure to move more quickly toward a satellite-based technology
that's been 10 years in the making.

"'Residents that have homes that would be in that flight path are
saying no,' Castelveter said."

I'm not sure how using GPS would change airport flight paths.


Well, airports themselves don't fly, but concerning approach paths, how about
the fact that non-overlay GPS approaches use different paths from other
existing approaches. Does that make it more clear?