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#71
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And I didn't say that you said it would.
Ok, as long as we're clear on that. ;-) Let me rephrase the question, how could the pilot's behavior, that is, not reporting leaving a previously assigned altitude on a discretionary descent, possibly displease ATC? The only possible thing that I could think of is that if ATC were waiting to assign that altitude to another aircraft. However, I would think that ATC would not assign a discretionary descent if that were the case. So, the net result is that I can't think of one. |
#72
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"Greg Esres" wrote in message ... The only possible thing that I could think of is that if ATC were waiting to assign that altitude to another aircraft. However, I would think that ATC would not assign a discretionary descent if that were the case. Exactly. If the controller needed ten thousand for another aircraft, he might issue "descend now to niner thousand, then descend at pilot's discretion maintain four thousand" instead of "descend at pilot's discretion, maintain four thousand". |
#73
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: wrote in message ... More than once at my airline a PD descent clearance was issued, then a handoff subsequently made to another sector. The receiving controller did not know about the PD clearance. But where's the ambiguity? See first answer above. It's not answered above. Whatever. |
#74
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Jim Baker wrote:
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message ink.net... wrote in message ... I have a similar background. When I was flying the air carrier aircraft, the company I worked for had as policy that its crews would report leaving a previously assigned altitude, whether PD or not. There reasoning was it removed any possibility of ambiguity. Where was ambiguity possible? In the real world to which most of us belong, ambiguity is not just possible, it is likely. Busy people doing somewhat stressful work forget things all the time. I think his point is that a cruise clearance is simply not ambiguous. It is spelled out very clearly and the rules are clear, not ambiguous. What do you think is ambiguous about it? Matt |
#75
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"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote: I think his point is that a cruise clearance is simply not ambiguous. It is spelled out very clearly and the rules are clear, not ambiguous. What do you think is ambiguous about it? Matt The thread is getting mature, but I believe "ambiguous" was in the context of a PD clearance, not a cruise clearance. |
#76
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wrote in message ... "Matthew S. Whiting" wrote: I think his point is that a cruise clearance is simply not ambiguous. It is spelled out very clearly and the rules are clear, not ambiguous. What do you think is ambiguous about it? Matt The thread is getting mature, but I believe "ambiguous" was in the context of a PD clearance, not a cruise clearance. Correct. That is what I was referring to. |
#77
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#78
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Jim Baker wrote:
wrote in message ... "Matthew S. Whiting" wrote: I think his point is that a cruise clearance is simply not ambiguous. It is spelled out very clearly and the rules are clear, not ambiguous. What do you think is ambiguous about it? Matt The thread is getting mature, but I believe "ambiguous" was in the context of a PD clearance, not a cruise clearance. Correct. That is what I was referring to. Ok ... so where's the ambiguity in a PD clearance? Matt |
#79
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"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message ... Jim Baker wrote: wrote in message ... "Matthew S. Whiting" wrote: I think his point is that a cruise clearance is simply not ambiguous. It is spelled out very clearly and the rules are clear, not ambiguous. What do you think is ambiguous about it? Matt The thread is getting mature, but I believe "ambiguous" was in the context of a PD clearance, not a cruise clearance. Correct. That is what I was referring to. Ok ... so where's the ambiguity in a PD clearance? Matt OK, I looked up the word "ambiguity" in the dictionary (online) and the second def is "uncertainty". Without rereading all the threads, I believe the point Sammy and I were trying to make is that, through our years of flying, we've found that sometimes controllers make mistakes, as do pilots. With ref to PD, we have found that occassionally if a PD isn't started pretty soon after it's been issued, a controller can forget he issued it, change shifts or stations and not give a good briefing, or whatever. I have been asked, a few times, several minutes after being issued a PD and prior to starting down, if I have started it yet. This while above FL180. This query from ATC caused uncertainty, some might say ambiguity, in my mind because I believed he was tracking my altitude. Perhaps he was just being polite and was telling me to get my ass down, dunno. At any rate, I'm of the opinion, through 30+ years of flying in the U.S. and Central/South America, that communication with ATC is good. Therefore, if I don't start a PD immediately after it's been issued, I remove the uncertainty from my mind, and possibly from the controllers mind ("have you started yet?"), by making a short radio transmission on an uncongested frequency. I don't think it costs the controllers anything to hear this, and it provides me comfort knowing I've alerted the controller to what I'm doing. That's it. No more discussion from me on such a trivial point. I want to do it, it doesn't violate anything, it makes me feel that things are safer, and, speaking for Sammy (perhaps I shouldn't), that's the end of the conversation on this silly subthread. JB |
#80
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Jim Baker wrote:
"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message ... Jim Baker wrote: wrote in message ... "Matthew S. Whiting" wrote: I think his point is that a cruise clearance is simply not ambiguous. It is spelled out very clearly and the rules are clear, not ambiguous. What do you think is ambiguous about it? Matt The thread is getting mature, but I believe "ambiguous" was in the context of a PD clearance, not a cruise clearance. Correct. That is what I was referring to. Ok ... so where's the ambiguity in a PD clearance? Matt OK, I looked up the word "ambiguity" in the dictionary (online) and the second def is "uncertainty". Without rereading all the threads, I believe the point Sammy and I were trying to make is that, through our years of flying, we've found that sometimes controllers make mistakes, as do pilots. With ref to PD, we have found that occassionally if a PD isn't started pretty soon after it's been issued, a controller can forget he issued it, change shifts or stations and not give a good briefing, or whatever. I have been asked, a few times, several minutes after being issued a PD and prior to starting down, if I have started it yet. This while above FL180. This query from ATC caused uncertainty, some might say ambiguity, in my mind because I believed he was tracking my altitude. Perhaps he was just being polite and was telling me to get my ass down, dunno. At any rate, I'm of the opinion, through 30+ years of flying in the U.S. and Central/South America, that communication with ATC is good. Therefore, if I don't start a PD immediately after it's been issued, I remove the uncertainty from my mind, and possibly from the controllers mind ("have you started yet?"), by making a short radio transmission on an uncongested frequency. I don't think it costs the controllers anything to hear this, and it provides me comfort knowing I've alerted the controller to what I'm doing. OK, ambiguity in your mind isn't the same, however, as ambiguity in the procedure. Whenever anyone makes a mistake, be it pilot or controller, you have introduced lots of uncertainty, but that isn't the same as having an uncertain procedure. Matt |
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