GAO Report: GA Security Threat

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:44:15 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:

| I'm only aware of one such person and he made claims about nuclear
| weapons which made it clear that he actually knew nothing about them.

Well, I heard it on NPR.

Why, then it must be true! ;-)

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

Robert,

Stephan, the *whole era* was missing from their study. And it's not
like I didn't converse with other Germans while there. I did: hundreds
to thousands in my time there. (I lost count.)

In Germany, the subject simply never comes up in polite conversation.
The topic of Nazi's is banned in Germany. The norm by now is expected
to be widespread ignorance of that part of their history.


Man, I live here! You are simply wrong. The subject is discussed on a
regular basis, there are no inhibitions at all. Just last week, a
politician got fired for publicly displaying anti-semitism - and
everybody and his brother discussed the topic.

I can point you to the lesson plans of ANY German federal state - all
will contain extensive lessons in that part of history. If anything,
that part of our history is overtaught - rightly so, I might add.

I don't know which Germany you talk about, but it's not the country I
live in.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Ian,

It took a while for things to stabilize, but that leaves a whole
generation of West Germans with marginal understanding of a decade of
German history, while their counterparts from the DDR were being taught
that the NSDAP were the cause for everything that had ever gone wrong in
the world. Put the two groups together with reunification, and you get
a serious level of confusion about what was truth, what was hyperbole
and what really went wrong.


I don't know where you get this kind of information. But this is not a
problem in any way here.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Ian,

If you were born after about 1935, you don't
know as much as you think you know, having obtained your education in
your country's history following the imposition of laws restricting the
dissemination of information on the NSDAP.


Yeah, right... Time for a reality check, my man.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Ian,

Are you including the thousand or so international agitators whom police
have identified as joining the "spontaneous" demonstrations?

BTW, the security is largely aimed at preventing conflict between
various subgroups of protestors, as well as protecting them from the
very real possibilty of attack from such people as the extremists that
they are supporting.


If those statements weren't so sad, they would be really funny. Care to
share whatever you are smoking?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"Montblack" wrote in message
...
("Robert Perkins" wrote)
They just didn't study it. History began with the formation of the
BRD, there was a 17 year gap, anything before that was like studying
pre-Civil War days in the U.S., that is to say, cursory.


We live in the "obscure president street names" area of town - Buchanan,
Van Buren, Pierce, Tyler, Quincy, Monroe, Polk, Fillmore, Taylor. The
nieces have lived around here for 17 years - they didn't know the
streets were named for Presidents.

Yes, Tyler is only two blocks over from Taylor. Can you say postal
confusion?

Yes, especially for Mr. Taylor, the tailor that has a shop over on Tyler.

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:56:42 +0000, Robert Perkins wrote:

What they learned there I gleaned from their descriptions of the
curriculum, not their recollections of the details of the curriculum.
Stephan, the *whole era* was missing from their study. And it's not like
I didn't converse with other Germans while there. I did: hundreds to
thousands in my time there. (I lost count.)

In Germany, the subject simply never comes up in polite conversation.
The topic of Nazi's is banned in Germany. The norm by now is expected to
be widespread ignorance of that part of their history.

These are pretty sever accusations. I would like to understand better from
where they come from. Do you speak German? How long did you stay in
Germany? Are you competent in the matters of eduction and school
curriculum? I sense a somewhat educated person behind what you write, but
am at a total loss as to understand how you came to your findings.

I went to school in Germany. My father taught history in German schools. I
can assure you the time between 1933 and 1945 is taught, including the
Holocaust. There were the history classes in which we went through the
chronology of political events in detail and I heard it twice (maybe
because I changed state and school). Then book reviews in the literature
classes. Read Peter Bamm's battle field reports as a 15 year old. It will
create pictures in your head that will stay with you for life. They've
shown us documentary films with caterpillars shoveling skinny corpses into
mass graves. Extremities moving one last time as if they might still have
life in them. View that as teenager without preparation of daily violence
on TV and you'll be thrown in a depression. Yes, they did tell us before
it would be tough and we could elect to leave the class room. But if you
didn't and also happened to have read Anne Frank's diary before seeing
this it will be more than you thought you could take that day.

I wished Thomas Borchert, as a German, would have voiced his political
position a bit more diplomatically in a predominantly American forum. You
won't understand him, and Germany's politics regarding Iraq neither.
But the German people has been exposed to the horrors of war not that long
ago. It happened right where they live and that, together with the
incomprehensible guilt on the German nation has turned the people into
pacifists. This has everything to do with the ugly face of war and little
with the relationship between Germany and the United States and their
people.


- Holger

PS: I felt oblighted to respond, but don't like cross posting and would
like to leave it at this, for the groups I don't visit.

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:56:42 +0000, Robert Perkins wrote:

In Germany, the subject simply never comes up in polite conversation.
The topic of Nazi's is banned in Germany. The norm by now is expected to
be widespread ignorance of that part of their history.

There is one thing I should add. AFAIK the discussion of the Third Reich
was not an official part of the curriculum in West Germany for some time
after the war. I think it was somewhere in the 60s or maybe even 70s when
they added it. I guess it took some time for them to figure out how to
present it to the next generation.

- Holger

Holger,

I think it was somewhere in the 60s or maybe even 70s when
they added it.


The change was both one of the main reasons for and consequences of the
student protests of the late 60s.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Holger,

I wished Thomas Borchert, as a German, would have voiced his political
position a bit more diplomatically in a predominantly American forum.


Do you see any "diplomacy" in the way the US view is presented here? Or
the slander of the German society? I sure don't.

This has everything to do with the ugly face of war and little
with the relationship between Germany and the United States and their
people.

I'm not sure I agree. A good part of the American people, and their
politicians for sure, have change a lot during the last two years. Some
of that change is, well, let's say, hard to understand. Oh, and I know
many Americans who agree vehemently.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)