Student Drop-Out Rates...why?

Pretend somebody is extolling the "magic" of ice fishing to you. I can
intellectually understand how some people might feel this way, but I don't
"get it". By your admission, neither do you. What should they do to help
you see the light?

Because that is what you are asking w/r/t flying.

I'm from Wisconsin, so I know more than a few ice fishermen.

I used to have an employee who was absolutely ga-ga about fishing of all
kinds. She even sat out on frozen lakes for hours at a time, in a glorified
canvas outhouse, waiting for the fish to bite. Amazingly, she didn't even
drink (which seems to be a prerequisite to ice -- or any other -- fishing),
so God only knows what she did in that little confessional for all that
time...

I get your point, but I don't think we're talking apples to apples here.
Flying is one of the pinnacles of mankind's achievements, while ice fishing
represents...well, to put it kindly, mankind's stubbornness.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

It just took eating at home, forgoing new cars, concerts, and movies, and
...

Enough money in a savings account to fund your flight training.

True enough.

But it was a paltry amount, really, compared to what my neighbor's kid just
spent on his 2005 Japanese Crotch Rocket...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

The important element is passion. Only a small proportion of the
population possesses passion for anything, but where it lives you can't
hold it back.

Jay Honeck wrote:
Well said.
So many people I meet have no spark, no life -- seemingly no soul. There
simply is no light in their eyes, and there may never be...
It's terribly sad, but that's life, I guess.

Back in my high school and college days, I was heavily involved in
smallbore rifle competition. We had shirts that had printed on the back,
"It's not just a sport, it's a way of life!"

Did she go with her boyfriend or husband? I'm convinced that ice fishing is
what many consider the ultimate escape from their significant other. One is
crazy or desperate enough to endure the snow, ice, wind, sub zero
temperatures, sometimes dangerous ice, and utter boredom just to escape from
the other one, knowing that the other won't be so brave as to follow them
(or knowing that the other one isn't that stupid)

When they go together, it isn't ice fishing anymore, it's either called
relationship building or revenge.

Jim

gregg wrote:


Scuba Diving. I got certified about 8 years ago but have only gone twice.
As a kid I thought it would be "magical". I didn't find it so as an adult.
But I know people who craft all their vacations around diving.

I was certified when young, and rediscovered it as an adult. It's actually
a good example in that it is still magical to me...but not something I can
do around home.

Flying wins.

My hope is that, eventually, we'll fly to where we can dive.

Noteworthy is that I turned my wife onto diving just as I've been doing with
flying. The first time was a stupid resort course, and she was justifiably
nervous. But after training, she used less air than I and found it just as
magical.

I actually find flying and diving quite similar, with the 3D mobility,
freedom combined with precision, fascinating sights, etc.

- Andrew

Flying is one of the pinnacles of mankind's achievements

Objectively, it's not even much of an achievement. Creatures with
brains the size of a walnut have been doing it for years, and come
Oshkosh, you are cursing even smaller-brained creatures that do it
naturally. Objectively, flying is just a fancy way to get blown around
by the wind.

Non-objectively, we are talking opinion, and it's not fair to expect
that your opinion be shared by the rest of the world. Even if it's
right.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jay Honeck wrote:

His point is that all people decide to stop progressing at some point. He
used Jay as an example of someone who stopped progressing at single engine,
fixed gear VFR flying. Others may stop at solo. I don't see much of a
difference between stopping at solo or at PP.


I understand Jose's point completely, although the analogy is
imperfect.

Unfortunately, however, you have both missed the point, which is this:
Flying is a magical, almost spiritual experience for thousands of
people just like me. To be floating in the heavens, far above the
earth's troubles, is the "magic" that these pilots apparently aren't
"getting" -- it has nothing to do with any "progression" from solo to
private to instrument to multi-engine.

Now that I think about it, THAT is the part that I truly don't "get".
How anyone can take the controls of an airplane and not feel that magic
is simply beyond me -- and how anyone can simply choose to never
experience it again (by quitting flying) is proof that they never felt
the magic in the first place.

Well, Jay, you need to realize that the whole world isn't made up of
people just like you. Some folks get their magic climbing a high
mountain, some get it kayaking across a wilderness lake, etc. Flying is
magical for many of us, but it is shear terror for others.

Matt

Jay Honeck wrote:

Even if you instantly did away with the knackered old trainers and had
brand new, state of the art trainers with AC and glass cockpits, the
amount of time needed just to get the private and to be able to fly only
in nice weather would mean that mainly just the passionate would
complete their training.


I'll agree with you on the old rental trainer issue -- GOD, I flew some
dogs -- but the limitation of "only flying in nice weather" stuff is a bit
silly.

Mary and I have flown over 1500 hours in the last ten years, all VFR. We've
been from one end of the North American continent to the other, and seen
everything in between, on hundreds of flights, yet I can count on one hand
the number of trips that have been delayed more than a few hours due to
weather.

Here in the northeast, I found that getting my instrument rating allowed
me to make about 30% more flights on my schedule than I could otherwise.
It is very common to have a low overcast that is 3,000 feet thick and
then clear blue on top.

Matt

Here in the northeast, I found that getting my instrument rating allowed
me to make about 30% more flights on my schedule than I could otherwise.
It is very common to have a low overcast that is 3,000 feet thick and
then clear blue on top.

I'll agree that there are parts of the country that darned-near require
an IR. I'm happy to report that (a) I don't live in one, and (b) I
don't fly there very often, either.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Well, I was almost one of them that quit. Several times. Actually,
almost never started.

My Backround:
I've always been interested in aviation in some form or another. I
remember my father taking me to the local airport (the same airport I
would solo from nearly 25 years later) and looking at "new" airplanes
on the ramp in the mid 70's. I still remember the desire in his eyes
as we walked around the airplane.

I did the Flight Simulator thing from mid-1980's until I started flight
training in late 2002. Occasionally would buy an aviation magazine
when I was waiting for a commercial flight. There was something about
reading a piloting magazine aboard an airliner traveling at 30,000,
also a desire to be noticed by a pilot and to belong to the fraternity
of pilots, etc.

Never took a ride on a GA plane, never had an acquaintance who had even
been on a small plane, until I went to college, and they were on an
airline track.

I lurked on various aviation newsgroups. Read plenty of documentation
on flight training due to my interest in making my "simulated" flights
more realistic.

Yet, despite all this interest, for almost 15 years from the time I
realistically could have expended the financial and time requirements
to begin flight training, I did nothing but look up in the skies. I
didn't even long for joining the ranks of pilots. It just seemed
unrealistic.

Why?

1. Stigma of GA airplanes as being dangerous. When I was younger, my
parents would have been cautious about flight training. Later, my wife
was. Instead of recognizing my interest (even if I couldnt' recognize
it myself) and encouraging me, they kept silent if they even did
notice. I suppose I knew instinctively, I would have a decidedly
negative reaction to overcome before I even took the first BeAPilot
ride. As it was, my first training flight ride took a birthday present
request from my wife, and 2 months of research and convincing.

2. Cost. Cost is a decided factor, although when compared to the
amount of money I have expended over the years in various joy sticks,
graphics cards, software, computer equipment, sim charts, etc to
satisfy my flight simulator habit, I'm sure I could have acquired a PP
certificate for similar amounts of money. The perception is that its
"too expensive" rather than detailing what the expense includes, and
the reason for that expense (fuel costs, regulation, etc). In
addition, the ability to rent an airplane was foreign to me before I
started my training. My understanding was that one would rent an
airplane to get their certificate, then buy an airplane. The
significant cost of an airplane was certainly well known. Those flight
magazines highlighted the multi-hundreds of thousands of dollars of
cost for a brand new plane. I never was exposed to trade-a-plane, or
ASO, or controller.com where I could see the cost of used airplanes
could be more realistic. Nor was I exposed to cost sharing
arrangements, such as partnerships, flying clubs, or even the details
of renting: renting wet, hobbes meter timing (you mean I only get
charged for the time the engine is actually running?), block rates,
etc.

3. Complexity. I couldnt' be a pilot. I didnt have good enough eyes.
I didn't have good enough hand-eye coordination. I would never be
able to land a real plane on a real runway, I had a terrible time
trying to land that 737 on the ILS into San Francisco! I just couldn't
do it. Besides, I'm scared of heights!

So I sat on the ground. Never could actually complete this, so why
even start? Why expend the effort if I would never succeed?

In my case, a smattering of events brought about the path to getting my
certificate. A helicopter flight on an Alaskan cruise, revealed that
even though im scared of heights, it was different actually being
aboard an aircraft. And oh, the views! September 11th brought
aviation back into the topic of public conversation because it was in
the news. A casual conversation with a co-worker revealed he was a
pilot. Really? How could he be a pilot? He certainly wasn't smarter
than me. He wasn't coordinated. And he probably made even less than
me, wasn't wealthy, and he had 3 kids! And not only that he had a
multi-engine rating!

All the above combined with an arguably early mid-life crisis at 32,
and I decided that if I didn't at least take one flight I would be
kicking myself later. Why not now? So I arranged that birthday
BeAPilot flight (2 months after my birthday) and took my first flight
aboard one of those "deadly little airplanes".

I had a good instructor, although younger than myself. He let me have
a free reign, we did takeoffs, turns, stalls (after I said that that
was probably the scariest thing I was worried about in training, and he
suggested we try it) and even a landing.

I was hooked and signed up for a Part 141 package (thereby avoiding
your syllabus problem Jay, I agree that a syllabus certainly helped
knowing what was next and having a path to follow).

In some stories this would end here with a "and the rest is history".
But not in this case. I started training on Oct 1, 2002 and soloed
right before Thanksgiving.

I didnt' go back up until almost February and almost never went back.

Why? Well the holidays, weather, and work issues made flight time
unavailable. My wife was still not real comfortable with me flying
,and the fact that I soloed made it worse. I was now alone on the
plane after all who would save it if I became distracted or something
happened?

And in some sense, I had achieved a goal. I had piloted that machine
from takeoff around the pattern and back to a safe landing. Not once
but 3 times! It was anti-climactic. I was a pilot. I would always
have that solo. Did I need more?

Luckily I got the bug again, I still had all that money I still had on
account, and so I went back up in late January. My flight instructor
never called. Never asked why after seeing me 2-3 times a week he
stopped seeing me for almost 2 months. If I had waited until March or
April, I'm sure I would have been too embarassed to come back to the
flight school. This despite the fact that I had effectively already
paid for the flights!

I finished my training in June, and now I was a pilot. I took my wife
up, I took my Dad. I took my brother. Went on cross countries.
Went by myself. Went, went, went. Then it got hot in August, work
intruded again in September, Thunderstorms would pop up. My wife
still wasn't totally happy with me flying.

And now I was out of the cockpit for almost 8 weeks. Could I still
really land that plane? What if a crosswind came up? What if I ran it
off the runway and damaged it? Was I still safe enough to fly? I would
put off scheduling a flight because I wasn't sure. Luckily I decided I
needed to go back up, and scheduled some dual, 15 minutes with the
instructor in the right seat, and any worries I had were gone. But the
barrier was there.

So in my own experience, I almost quit 2 or 3 times. Not because I
didn't sense the magic, not because I didn't love doing it. It was
hard to arrange a plane, it was easy to not go today, I'll go next
week. And before long it was 2 months since I was in a plane, and I
didnt' feel comfortable doing it safely anymore.

I agree with you Jay, that this is a major issue in aviation today. I
went to an AOPA meeting a while back here in St. Louis and the room was
full of gray hair. And I worried what that meant for the next 10-20
years. I also hope that the new LSA's will at least get younger people
into the cockpit and past the solo stage. Especially with those that
have a desire, but can't finance an entire private pilot certificate.

So what do we need to do?

1. Reduce the "dangerous airplane" perception. The book "The Killing
Zone" makes the argument that real danger is not in training. ASF
reports bear this out as well. In your conversations with the public
stress how safe student flying is. ASF and AOPA can help here. When
accidents such as John Denver's, John Kennedy, etc come out discuss the
issues as knowledgeable experts. Discuss the fatal flaws. Express how
their problems do not worry you for your own flights because of the
safety steps you take. Sometimes this is seen as denigrating those
pilots for the mistakes they made, but the alternative is that the
public walks away seeing them as helpless victims struck down in their
prime.

2. Reduce the cost of first flights, especially if you own an
airplane. In almost every one of my conversations with friends
acquaintances, etc, I offer a free flight. I don't discuss the costs.
I've glossed over the glaring $70/hour on the billboard in the FBO. I
don't let them see my bill. I don't let them pay. They're my guest.
If asked about the cost I'm honest, but explain some of the finer
points. Wet rates, block rates, hobbes meters, etc. To reduce the
nature of the cost. Now that I own a plane I talk about partnerships
and how my partnership really drives down the cost of flying. In
today's high price gas environment, I talk about how aviation fuel
tends to be stably priced over the short term and how you can find low
price of gas at various fields if one shops around. I only do that if
asked directly though.

3. Complexity. In my conversations with the non-flying public I
always stress that it isn't that hard. That there really aren't that
many things to learn to become a full fledged private pilot, and in
retrospect there aren't, just a few maneuvers, a few rules, and your
done. It sure didnt' seem that way when I first looked at the
syllabus. Looking back, I don't know why I fretted my flight test so
much. I don't talk about ILS's to minimums, safety pilots, GPS
approaches, etc. I talk about how a vast majority of airports are
small airports that don't have tower's, and don't require a new
vocabulary on the radio, etc. I think a lot of pilots are scared away
about having to talk on the radio with all the big pilots and feeling
foolish.

4. Utility. In my conversations with the public I talk about the
utility of being able to fly. I note that its not better than the
airlines, unless your going to out of the way places, but its certainly
more scenic, and you get to decide where to go, and the schedule. I
cite many of your trip reports Jay, and talk about the fun your family
is having (as my family builds up trips, I plan to do the same).

5. Downplay emergencies. I always get asked about "being scared" and
what do you do if the engine quits, and all that stuff. I discuss the
one engine out situation I've had already, and how the plane doesn't
fall out of the sky. I make it into a non-event. The prop stopped,
it was unusual, but it restarted, and even if it didnt there was a
perfectly good field below us, and we train for it, etc. I talk about
how airplanes used to not have paved runways at all, its called a field
sometimes, because that's exactly what it was. A big grass field that
airplanes landed in. Landing in the grass doesn't mean fire and
explosion, and propellers stopping doesn't mean an automatic crash. If
they are mechanically inclined I stress how simple the engine's are.
Air cooled, no water pump, etc. Extremely reliable. Most common cause
of engine failure is simply running out of gas.

What else?

1. Training goals. CFI's should get a feel for what their student is
after. What are their goals. If its just to solo thats fine, but
start talking to them about other opportunities beyond soloing. The
flight school should be a check on the CFI and have similar
conversations. If the student isn't making their goal, not showing up
for 2 months for example, a simple phone call saying that they got a
C172 available this weekend and how about going back up?

2. Build flying relationships, especially during training. I
self-studied for ground school (I'm not real good in a classroom
setting). One thing I think I missed is the ability to build a
relationship with other pilots. My CFI didn't encourage those
relationships, even though he knew everybody on the field. One of my
current partners had the same CFI I did, and she was encouraged to form
relationships (I'm pretty sure because she's a she, and single). Those
relationships make it easier to fly. Sharing trips, becoming partner's
in an airplane, someone to notice your not at the airport anymore, and
followup, etc.

3. Flying clubs, FBO's, etc. They can encourage inactive pilots to
come back into the fold, or to bring new members. Strike a deal where
you get $5-10/hour rebate if you take a passenger up and he then signs
up for an hour of dual or a Discovery flight. If your FBO sells
planes, encourage those relationships. For every plane your trying to
sell, see if your existing customer base is a potential for a
partnership for that plane. Help the prospective buyers in partnership
issues. I know I lucked into the partnership I'm in now. It didnt'
have to be that way. Open Houses also allow those airport restaraunts
that are dwindling to get extra revenue.

4. Airports need more activities. Fly-in's, public open houses, etc.
When you have an event, advertise to the non-flying public. Let the
public walk around your airplane. I know before I started flying, I
would usually go to the air show that Spirit (SUS) has locally. But GA
planes were mostly non-existant. Military aircraft dominated. If GA
aircraft were around, they were typically experimentals. Your Cherokee
or Cessna is just as interesting to a prospective pilot. Especially if
you let them look inside, or sit inside, etc. Every airport, should
have at least one public open house per year. And not just a fly-in,
but an open house, inviting the public to come out and see where the
airport is, and who's there etc. Most people in my area don't even know
the airport my plane is based at, much less the one I trained at. They
know of the towered airports, and of course Lambert (STL). When they go
to those events all they see is security and tall fencing and an elite
air. They won't go onto an airport, just like they wouldn't stride
into a country club they didnt belong to. We need to put the public
back into our local public airports. After 9/11, people are much more
shy about coming onto airport property.

5. Medical. The FAA needs to speed up the medical issues. In today's
magical drug for everything culture, almost everybody is prescribed
something. Some of which are not able to be flown on for good reasons,
and others simply because the beuracracy hasn't gotten around to
looking into it yet. LSA's with self-certifying medicals will help, but
they need to address the already certificated pilots who may need to be
brought back into the fold.


Wow, I rambled more than I planned to. But I'm with you Jay, this
needs to be improved. I'm only 35 and I don't want to be 55 and be the
only pilot around.

Brian
Archer N9093K