No more "Left Downwind"?

Jay Honeck wrote:
We attended a safety seminar on Tuesday during which the FAA presenter
(who was otherwise outstanding) went over a list of unapproved radio
calls. (Number one being, of course, the despised and now-specifically
prohibited "Any other traffic please advise...")

To our surprise, he claimed that the common phraseology "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering left downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City" is
incorrect. In short, he stated that you should say "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City", omitting
the word "left".

In his opinion (and, apparently, the FAA's), saying "left downwind" is
redundant, since everyone should know that the pattern is left (or
right, if appropriate) hand traffic. In high traffic areas, the FAA
thinks that omitting this single word will open the over-crowded unicom
frequencies so that other pilots can squeeze a word in.

Mary and I (and several other pilots) kept quiet during the
presentation, but strongly disagree with him on this topic. IMHO,
saying "left downwind" is clear, concise, and -- most importantly --
clarifies which side of the airport you're on. To assume that everyone
knows whether the pattern is left (or right) is, in my experience,
naive.

What do you guys think?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I would put it in the "one man's opinion" category and continue to use
it. No way can the statements of an FAA presenter be considered
official policy. I have caught ops inspectors in misstatements at
similar events and did not sit on my hands but got them to admit that
maybe further research was called for.

Bob Gardner

Bob Gardner

It's not the same thing because one example had designated Class D airspace
while the other example did not have designated Class D airspace.

One case was tower but no D going to tower with D.
The other case was D but no tower, going to tower with D.

The initial (or middle) condition was that the normally synched tower/D
combination was out of synch. That is a degree of sameness.

True, they were out of synch in the opposite direction, so it was not
"identical". But the degree of sameness is sufficient (IMHO) for the
point of the post.

So, what exactly is the charting requirement for a magenta vs a blue
airport symbol? And what is the exact relationship between class D and
a tower?

And while I'm at it... Special VFR used to be available in a surface
area. With the new alphabet, is it available above the ceiling of the
class D?

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
We attended a safety seminar on Tuesday during which the FAA presenter
(who was otherwise outstanding) went over a list of unapproved radio
calls. (Number one being, of course, the despised and now-specifically
prohibited "Any other traffic please advise...")

To our surprise, he claimed that the common phraseology "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering left downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City" is
incorrect. In short, he stated that you should say "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City", omitting
the word "left".

In his opinion (and, apparently, the FAA's), saying "left downwind" is
redundant, since everyone should know that the pattern is left (or
right, if appropriate) hand traffic. In high traffic areas, the FAA
thinks that omitting this single word will open the over-crowded unicom
frequencies so that other pilots can squeeze a word in.

Mary and I (and several other pilots) kept quiet during the
presentation, but strongly disagree with him on this topic. IMHO,
saying "left downwind" is clear, concise, and -- most importantly --
clarifies which side of the airport you're on. To assume that everyone
knows whether the pattern is left (or right) is, in my experience,
naive.

What do you guys think?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I admit that I don't presently fly. That said, to put it politely, I think
the guy is foolish.

BTW; those Safety Seminars, which normally also qualify for the Wings
Program, are normally hosted by an FAA Safety Program Manager who is a very
accomplished pilot and who scheduled the event and is responsible for it,
and who's name appeared on the advance notice of the seminar. However, due
to various circumstances, the seminar may actually be hosted by another
pilot who the Safety Program Manager believes can handle the task.

I would give the Safety Program Manager a call, or alternatively chat with
him at the next event where he is present, and make him aware of your
concern...

Peter

The FAA guy had his thumb up his ass. At small uncontrolled field, pretty
much the ONLY thing the FAA can ding you on (besides the beloved "careless
and reckless") is the part 91 rule that, absent official information to the
contrary (i.e. indicated on the segmented circle, published in the AFD,
notamed, etc.) traffic is LEFT.

And how many of us can monitor our home unicom any given weekend and hear
some bumbling fool announce that (s)he is RIGHT downwind for the active?
Almost everybody. And the bumbler is guided, ever so gently (GET A CLUE,
LARDASS, WE'RE LEFT TRAFFIC) into the path of part 91 righteousness.

When I moved to GOO (nee 017) in '75, we too were on 122.8 and it was squeal
city. When the FAA opened up 123.0, three of us in the area moved over and
the squeal was cut by two-thirds. Then with firefighting activity in the
summer at two of those airports who were on 123.0 (Columbia and Grass
Valley) the leftover squeal became critical. So we did a listening watch on
the newly allocated unicom frequencies (google 47 CFR 87.217) on 122.7,
122.72, 122.8, 122.97, 123.0, 123.05, and 123.07 and picked 122.725 as the
least congested of the channels. I haven't heard squeal in two years, and we
are high enough to pick up the Sacramento, Oakland, and San Francisco areas.

Oh, but you love little 122.8 because that's what you grew up with and
learned as a student pilot and it is just too hard to leave? Learn to love
squeal.


Jim



"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...


In his opinion (and, apparently, the FAA's), saying "left downwind" is
redundant, since everyone should know that the pattern is left (or
right, if appropriate) hand traffic. In high traffic areas, the FAA
thinks that omitting this single word will open the over-crowded unicom
frequencies so that other pilots can squeeze a word in.

Sorry, Larry, we've got seven of them now, with most of the new ones
sparsely used: (122.7, 122.72, 122.8, 122.97, 123.0, 123.05, and 123.07).

It only takes six months and a public hearing of the airport users to
petition the FAA/FCC for a new frequency.

Jim


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 01:56:42 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
:



On the other hand, if the FAA presenter was a true spokesman for
official policy, perhaps his admission, that the FAA considers the
congestion on the shared CFAF frequencies a safety concern, is
evidence that the FAA is powerless to petition the FCC for the
additional CTAF frequencies necessary to meet its federal mandate* to
insure safe skies.

In article .com,
"Jay Honeck" wrote:

We attended a safety seminar on Tuesday during which the FAA presenter
(who was otherwise outstanding) went over a list of unapproved radio
calls. (Number one being, of course, the despised and now-specifically
prohibited "Any other traffic please advise...")

To our surprise, he claimed that the common phraseology "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering left downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City" is
incorrect. In short, he stated that you should say "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City", omitting
the word "left".

In his opinion (and, apparently, the FAA's), saying "left downwind" is
redundant, since everyone should know that the pattern is left (or
right, if appropriate) hand traffic. In high traffic areas, the FAA
thinks that omitting this single word will open the over-crowded unicom
frequencies so that other pilots can squeeze a word in.

Mary and I (and several other pilots) kept quiet during the
presentation, but strongly disagree with him on this topic. IMHO,
saying "left downwind" is clear, concise, and -- most importantly --
clarifies which side of the airport you're on. To assume that everyone
knows whether the pattern is left (or right) is, in my experience,
naive.

What do you guys think?

It's a terrible idea.

Some airports have both left and right patterns operating simultaneously
for the same runway as part of their normal operations.

Even if the standard pattern is always either left or right, that's no
guarantee that everyone will be flying the standard pattern. Someone
might not know what the standard pattern is, or they might forget, or
they might decide not to fly it because of prevailing conditions.

Also, even if it is redundant, redundancy is not necessarily a bad thing
in aviation.

Finally, I think that the idea that omitting "left" and "right" will
free up significant time on the comm. frequency is questionable at best.

rg

BTIZ wrote:
well.. I'd like to know what side of the airport the other pilot thinks he
is on.. we are at an uncontrolled field.

Further I have operated out of airports that legitimately have traffic
operating out of both sides. Sometimes the opposite pattern is used
for things like:

Ultralights
Gliders
Helicopters.

210.213.98.18On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 09:14:30 -0400, Roy Smith
wrote:
This is a new thing. The FAA just introduced it about, oh, 3 or 4 years
ago?

Oh, so *that's* why we haven't noticed it on our charts -- it's not
there...

On 2 Sep 2006 06:39:04 -0700, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
And, of course, there are those who start talking BEFORE they push the
button, and inadvertently cut off their first few syllables -- so the
final mention of their whereabouts is often their ONLY mention of their
whereabouts.

But then they also unkey the mic before completing the transmission,
thus cutting off the airport name also...

On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 08:49:08 -0500, Emily
wrote:
The above is why I avoid small uncontrolled airports on the weekends.

Yeah, we wouldn't want to actually go someplace that was actually
*friendly*, would we? snicker