How often do you have to go around?

Wade Hasbrouck writes:

Being a 172 "driver", I know that anything that has more than one engine, or
a jet engine is going to be faster than me, also know most low wing aircraft
are going be faster than me (exceptions could be some Diamonds, some
experimentals, some Pipers like the Tomahawk, but these are typically
smaller than a 172). Most high wing aircraft are going to be right around
my speed range (182s are faster, 150s a little slower, taildraggers are
probably going to be slower because of their landing characteristics, but I
don't know much about taildraggers)

Are you ever instructed to follow heavy aircraft on final? If so, how
do you avoid things like wake turbulence?

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Wade Hasbrouck writes:

It has been several months since I messed around with Flight Sim, but I
haven't ever really noticed this, so I can't really comment on what is going
on. The winds due depend on if you are using the "real weather" or not...
Can't comment on anything more than 172.

I think the sim is accurately simulating something, I just don't know
what it is. Maybe I just have more of a tendency to overshoot than to
undershoot. Still, it seems that I drift sometimes even after I am
perfectly aligned.

For what it's worth, I actually did a go-around and flew the pattern
again this evening (or afternoon, in the simulator world), while
landing at KPHX. I managed to hold altitude relatively well (if I
understand correctly, 1000' AGL is the usual position). Turns were
okay. No help from autopilot. The weather was very nice, though,
which made things easier. And I know KPHX and Phoenix very well.
When I saw three aircraft approaching as I turned to base I knew that
ATC was going to shaft me again, but I figured I could use the
practice.

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Mxsmanic wrote:
In simulation, the simulated ATC seems to be very inefficient at
spacing aircraft, because practically every fifth aircraft on landing
is told to go around. In fact, if you are told to follow someone in
for a landing, you can take for granted that he won't clear the runway
in time and you'll be told to go around. It's tiresome and
frustrating after spending a lot of effort to line things up nicely.

How often does this happen in real life? I should think and hope that
real controllers can space aircraft better so that it's rarely
necessary to abort a landing.


This is because the AI in MSFS isn't smart enough to get the AI operated
aircraft of the runway in a timely manner.

A Lieberma wrote:
Ron Natalie wrote in
:

You should plan better so you aren't running down the (I believe it
is a 182). I don't know what kind of approaches you are making
in the game, but you should hang further back in faster aircraft.
If you passed underneath me in real life, I'd have the FAA on
short final I'd have the FAA on your ass.

Dang Ron,

Didn't you know that the lower plane has the right of way in REAL life and
you should give way to a plane passing under you on final

The rules say overtaking aircraft must give the right of way.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Wade Hasbrouck writes:

Being a 172 "driver", I know that anything that has more than one engine,
or
a jet engine is going to be faster than me, also know most low wing
aircraft
are going be faster than me (exceptions could be some Diamonds, some
experimentals, some Pipers like the Tomahawk, but these are typically
smaller than a 172). Most high wing aircraft are going to be right
around
my speed range (182s are faster, 150s a little slower, taildraggers are
probably going to be slower because of their landing characteristics, but
I
don't know much about taildraggers)

Are you ever instructed to follow heavy aircraft on final? If so, how
do you avoid things like wake turbulence?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Sort of already answered that in a different part of the thread... I have
not yet been put behind a heavier aircraft yet... However the general
practice is that you want to stay above the flight path of the heavier
aircraft and touchdown past the heavier aircraft's touchdown point. Taking
off after a heavier aircraft you want to stay above their flight path and
rotate before the point where they rotated.

However, as PIC you have the authority to decline an ATC request if you
think it would be unsafe or would not feel comfortable doing it, as it is
the PIC that is flying the aircraft, not ATC (although some controllers act
like they are flying the plane). If I was at Boeing Field, and landing on
13R, and a 777 landed while I was in the downwind, and given "Cessna xxxx,
Cleared to Land 13R, caution wake turbulence...", you can bet I would
decline that and probably ask to do some 360s or move to the short runway
(provided the wind isn't blowing the turbulence on to the other runway), or
a "go-around" (probably a kind of high go-around), or some other option.
Just because I am "cleared to land" doesn't mean I have to land, if I think
it is unsafe to do so, I have the right as PIC to decline it because I think
it is unsafe or not comfortable doing it, and in this case the controller
would be more than understanding, but most controllers are smart enough to
avoid putting you in that position.

I have been in the position of taking off after a heavier aircraft, and
recieved "Cleared to take off, caution wake turbulence, 767 departed 1
minute ago.", which just advised the controller that I would like to wait.
Was also cleared to take off to "take off no delay" at Renton because of
inbound lear jet, and apparently the contoller expected me to put full
throttle to taxi from the hold short line to the runway and I fumbled the
tail number (first time in the plane) and I got a gruff "Cessna xxxx I said
no delay!!!!!", which earned him a "Renton Tower, Cessna xxxx will wait for
the lear..." and sat at the hold short line, as I couldn't see where this
lear was, controllers attitude was not appropriate, and I didn't feel
comfortable doing and just pulled the throttle back and told them "I'll
wait", as I am flying the plane not him

I was asked to make a short aproach at Renton by the controller, and I
wasn't comfortable doing so at the time and just replied with "Cessna xxxx,
unable to do a short approach..." which got me "Cessna xxxx, do a right 360
for spacing", but as PIC I have the right to decline an ATC instruction if I
don't think it is safe. I was on a "close in base" (at the request of the
controller) at Renton once, and they cleared a plane to take off just as I
was to start my turn to a "short final", I wasn't comfortable with the way
things were looking, and told the controller "Renton Tower, Cessna xxxx,
doing a right 270 for spacing...", and it was like he didn't realize what
was about to transpire and was like "Yeah... Cessna xxxx, right 270 for
spacing..."

Dan wrote:
Right.. for example at OSH where they are landing 3 planes at a time on
the same runway.


Oshkosh gets a special exemption to allow that. Normally,
there are stricter rules that the controllers must follow.
They have to plan (with little exception) that one aircraft
can not touch down until the other is clear.

"Wade Hasbrouck" wrote:
Taking off after a heavier aircraft you want to stay above their flight
path and rotate before the point where they rotated.

That's the theory. In practice, I know of very few spam cans that can
outclimb a jet. There's no way you're going to stay above their flight
path if you follow their ground track.

The only way to avoid the wake of a departing jet is a quick turn away from
their track. It helps to be familiar with the IFR departure procedure, so
you can predict which way they'll turn. At HPN, I'll just ask for an
immediate turnout for wake avoidance. I've never had it turned down, and
I'm in my turn before I reach 100 AGL.

Ron Natalie wrote:
A Lieberma wrote:
Ron Natalie wrote in
:
You should plan better so you aren't running down the (I believe it
is a 182). I don't know what kind of approaches you are making
in the game, but you should hang further back in faster aircraft.
If you passed underneath me in real life, I'd have the FAA on
short final I'd have the FAA on your ass.

Dang Ron,

Didn't you know that the lower plane has the right of way in REAL life
and you should give way to a plane passing under you on final
The rules say overtaking aircraft must give the right of way.

Sometimes the overtaking aircraft can't. Sorry, but when I'm on final
in some planes I can't slow down for the jerk in front of me doing 50 knots.

Jim Macklin wrote:

anywhere

§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.
(a) Inapplicability. This section does not apply to the
operation of an aircraft on water.



Right of way rules do not apply at tower controlled fields.

Newps wrote:


Jim Macklin wrote:

anywhere

§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.
(a) Inapplicability. This section does not apply to the operation of
an aircraft on water.



Right of way rules do not apply at tower controlled fields.

Cite?