Stalls??

Why is it so many pilots are afraid of stalls? I see it over an over
when doing flight reviews and checks. Why are pilots so afraid of
flying in the low end of the speed envelope? Isn't that where the
nasty things can happen? Isn't that where a pilot should be
comfortable and competent?
What do you think?
Its a loaded? question and comes from a 24,000+ hour pilot and active
instructor. I'd really like to see some active discussion on this
subject. I'm tired of seeing aircraft damaged by sloppy flying, and
even more tired of seeing people injured by same.
Got any comments?
Ol S&B

"Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote in message
...
Why is it so many pilots are afraid of stalls? I see it over an over
when doing flight reviews and checks. Why are pilots so afraid of
flying in the low end of the speed envelope? Isn't that where the
nasty things can happen? Isn't that where a pilot should be
comfortable and competent?
What do you think?
Its a loaded? question and comes from a 24,000+ hour pilot and active
instructor. I'd really like to see some active discussion on this
subject. I'm tired of seeing aircraft damaged by sloppy flying, and
even more tired of seeing people injured by same.
Got any comments?
Ol S&B


Well as a low time weekend warrior type I don't dislike doing stalls but I
treat it with a lot of respect. I don't go out by myself and work on stalls
unless I have a CFI with me. I take a CFI with me quite a bit because
sometimes I will go a couple months in between flights with my work schedule
so I feel a lot more comfortable with a seasoned pilot with me. Eventually
I'd like to own my own plane and fly more but work and house payments don't
make that possible right now. If I flew more I'm sure I would be more
comfortable with those maneuvers but comfort always come with experience.

On Feb 13, 3:08 pm, "Darkwing" theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com wrote:
"Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote in ...

Why is it so many pilots are afraid of stalls? I see it over an over
when doing flight reviews and checks. Why are pilots so afraid of
flying in the low end of the speed envelope? Isn't that where the
nasty things can happen? Isn't that where a pilot should be
comfortable and competent?
What do you think?
Its a loaded? question and comes from a 24,000+ hour pilot and active
instructor. I'd really like to see some active discussion on this
subject. I'm tired of seeing aircraft damaged by sloppy flying, and
even more tired of seeing people injured by same.
Got any comments?
Ol S&B

Well as a low time weekend warrior type I don't dislike doing stalls but I
treat it with a lot of respect. I don't go out by myself and work on stalls
unless I have a CFI with me. I take a CFI with me quite a bit because
sometimes I will go a couple months in between flights with my work schedule
so I feel a lot more comfortable with a seasoned pilot with me. Eventually
I'd like to own my own plane and fly more but work and house payments don't
make that possible right now. If I flew more I'm sure I would be more
comfortable with those maneuvers but comfort always come with experience.

Have you ever tried a panic stop in your vehicle? Or are you just
hoping you'll know what to do when you have to?

On Feb 13, 12:53*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:
Why is it so many pilots are afraid of stalls? I see it over an over
when doing flight reviews and checks. Why are pilots so afraid of
flying in the low end of the speed envelope? Isn't that where the
nasty things can happen? Isn't that where a pilot should be
comfortable and competent?
What do you think?
Its a loaded? question and comes from a 24,000+ hour pilot and active
instructor. I'd really like to see some active discussion on this
subject. I'm tired of seeing aircraft damaged by sloppy flying, and
even more tired of seeing people injured by same.
Got any comments?
Ol S&B

As an instructor I approach the first stall with a student with some
caution just because I don't know the plane. I've had a few planes end
up with the blue side down (a Bonanza and a Mooney) in the stall.
These owners had not stalled their planes before. When i was a student
pilot in the Cessna 140 I also thought it odd that some people didn't
like stalls. That was because the C-140 doesn't really stall, it just
buffets along. However, you jump into something with a more
interesting stall characteristic and you can see why some students
don't like stalls.
I'm actually becoming a bit of an odd ball in the Mooney community
because I still do full stalls in the plane. Most of the other CFIs
only go to the first nose drop, not a full stall and when teaching at
the Mooney Pilot Prof. courses you are prohibited from doing full
stalls with students. There are a lot of 10,000+ hour Mooney
instructors that say you simply shouldn't be doing full stalls in
these types of planes.

-Robert, CFII

On Feb 13, 3:22*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
On Feb 13, 12:53*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:

Why is it so many pilots are afraid of stalls? I see it over an over
when doing flight reviews and checks. Why are pilots so afraid of
flying in the low end of the speed envelope? Isn't that where the
nasty things can happen? Isn't that where a pilot should be
comfortable and competent?
What do you think?
Its a loaded? question and comes from a 24,000+ hour pilot and active
instructor. I'd really like to see some active discussion on this
subject. I'm tired of seeing aircraft damaged by sloppy flying, and
even more tired of seeing people injured by same.
Got any comments?
Ol S&B

As an instructor I approach the first stall with a student with some
caution just because I don't know the plane. I've had a few planes end
up with the blue side down (a Bonanza and a Mooney) in the stall.
These owners had not stalled their planes before. When i was a student
pilot in the Cessna 140 I also thought it odd that some people didn't
like stalls. That was because the C-140 doesn't really stall, it just
buffets along. However, you jump into something with a more
interesting stall characteristic and you can see why some students
don't like stalls.
I'm actually becoming a bit of an odd ball in the Mooney community
because I still do full stalls in the plane. Most of the other CFIs
only go to the first nose drop, not a full stall and when teaching at
the Mooney Pilot Prof. courses you are prohibited from doing full
stalls with students. *There are a lot of 10,000+ hour Mooney
instructors that say you simply shouldn't be doing full stalls in
these types of planes.

-Robert, CFII

Robert
What is a full stall? Does it have anything to do with the pitch
attitude of the aircraft? The whole purpose of doing stall practice is
to teach a pilot how not to get into a stall that makes him NewsAt 9
and a smoking hole in the ground...??!!
What is the advantage of going into a "deep stall" that pitches the
nose down steeply and results in a severe loss of altitude? Isn't the
purpose of stall practice to simulate stalls in the departure or
approach phase? And how much altitude is there to play with? I don't
think it should be thought of as 2-3000 feet as done in practice.
Rather it should be thought of as 50 feet as in an approach stall, or
as 100 feet in a departure stall. Now we are getting realistic in the
dangers of stalls and how to make an effective recovery without
hitting the ground.
Your comment about not knowing the plane has me curious. In fact, most
of your post has me confused as regards stalls.
Cheers
Ol S&B

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:50:09 -0800 (PST), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
... The whole purpose of doing stall practice is
to teach a pilot how not to get into a stall that makes him NewsAt 9
and a smoking hole in the ground...??!!
What is the advantage of going into a "deep stall" that pitches the
nose down steeply and results in a severe loss of altitude? Isn't the
purpose of stall practice to simulate stalls in the departure or
approach phase?...

You teach full stalls because although you should never get into one
accidentally, if it DOES happen you don't want it to be a totally
unfamiliar situation.

-Dana
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On Feb 13, 1:50*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:

Your comment about not knowing the plane has me curious. In fact, most
of your post has me confused as regards stalls.
Cheers
Ol S&B

I'm mostly an inde CFI so I don't have the benefit of knowing the
planes I'm going to be instructing in. Although the Cessna & Piper
brands normally stall about the same, the higher performance singles
often have individual personalities. For instance I can jump in one
plane and do stalls that are very tame and jump into another with a
serial number only a few off and end up inverted (I know this from
experience ). So the first time you stall a customer's plane you
want to be very careful, especially if you are the first CFI that's
done a full stall in the plane since the last rigging.
I picked up a Mooney from a Mooney Service Center after some control
linkage work. They actually have test pilots fly their aircraft before
releasing them back to customers. I met with the test pilot because I
knew they did a lot of flap rigging and asked him how it stalled
afterwards. He said "Oh, I don't stall them, but it flew straight as I
dropped the flaps". He then put on the helmet and jumped on his crotch
rocket. Full stalls, to the point the nose pitches down, seems to be a
thing of the past in high performance planes now. Again, teaching at
the official prof courses, we are prohibited from doing them.

-Robert, CFII

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:50:09 -0800 (PST), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
wrote:

snip

Robert
What is a full stall? Does it have anything to do with the pitch
attitude of the aircraft? The whole purpose of doing stall practice is
to teach a pilot how not to get into a stall that makes him NewsAt 9
and a smoking hole in the ground...??!!
What is the advantage of going into a "deep stall" that pitches the
nose down steeply and results in a severe loss of altitude? Isn't the
purpose of stall practice to simulate stalls in the departure or
approach phase? And how much altitude is there to play with? I don't
think it should be thought of as 2-3000 feet as done in practice.

Our goals in practice were zero loss although up to a 100 was
acceptable.

Rather it should be thought of as 50 feet as in an approach stall, or
as 100 feet in a departure stall. Now we are getting realistic in the

Altitude loss in a departure stall can easily be held to zero in a Bo.
Gear and flaps down in approach mode should be 50 (or less) unless
you hold it in the stall for effect.

dangers of stalls and how to make an effective recovery without
hitting the ground.
Your comment about not knowing the plane has me curious. In fact, most
of your post has me confused as regards stalls.
Cheers
Ol S&B
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:22:19 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

On Feb 13, 12:53*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:
Why is it so many pilots are afraid of stalls? I see it over an over
when doing flight reviews and checks. Why are pilots so afraid of
flying in the low end of the speed envelope? Isn't that where the
nasty things can happen? Isn't that where a pilot should be
comfortable and competent?
What do you think?
Its a loaded? question and comes from a 24,000+ hour pilot and active
instructor. I'd really like to see some active discussion on this
subject. I'm tired of seeing aircraft damaged by sloppy flying, and
even more tired of seeing people injured by same.
Got any comments?
Ol S&B

As an instructor I approach the first stall with a student with some
caution just because I don't know the plane. I've had a few planes end
up with the blue side down (a Bonanza and a Mooney) in the stall.
These owners had not stalled their planes before. When i was a student
pilot in the Cessna 140 I also thought it odd that some people didn't
like stalls. That was because the C-140 doesn't really stall, it just
buffets along. However, you jump into something with a more
interesting stall characteristic and you can see why some students
don't like stalls.
I'm actually becoming a bit of an odd ball in the Mooney community
because I still do full stalls in the plane. Most of the other CFIs
only go to the first nose drop, not a full stall and when teaching at
the Mooney Pilot Prof. courses you are prohibited from doing full
stalls with students. There are a lot of 10,000+ hour Mooney

If I signed up for a PP course and they wouldn't do full stalls I'd
demand my money back. WE did them at the Bo specific training.
Incidentally only 3 of us out of 63 had done full stalls in a Bo and
only one of us still practiced them regularly. Other than abrupt the
Bo and Mooney are both predictable and easily handled in the hands of
an experienced pilot.

instructors that say you simply shouldn't be doing full stalls in
these types of planes.

IMO Pure BS over hip deep and a very dangerous attitude for them to
take.


-Robert, CFII
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:22:19 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:
instructors that say you simply shouldn't be doing full stalls in
these types of planes.
IMO Pure BS over hip deep and a very dangerous attitude for them to
take.

I FULLY Agree. I own an M20J (since 1979) and have done CFI work in
other Mooneys in the past, and stalls are not much different in them. I
also was part owner in a BE33 from '70-'79. In both cases, the stalls
were and are not particularly unstable. Sure they buffet, and sure they
might fall off one way or the other. One should know that they both have
factory installed stall strips on a particular place on the wing leading
edges that make stalls reasonable.

Students must be taught to be comfortable with stalls in such aircraft.
Instructors and check-out pilots must demonstrate them in all
check-outs. The student must not only be comfortable in executing them
(stall and recovery); they also should be willing to repeatedly
demonstrate them confidently for you without any assistance from you.

One thing to be careful of is the CG during checkouts. It must be well
forward. Do not have anyone in the back seat since the further aft is
the CG, the harder it is to recover from an inadvertent spin entry. And
of course have plenty of altitude; minimum of 3,000 feet above local
terrain, higher if recoveries cannot be completed above 2,000' above
local terrain. One time in the '70's I was instructing in a CAP T41
(like a Cessna 172). I had that student climb it to 10,000 feet to
practice spins and their recovery. That T41 would immediately and
repeatedly recover on its own when we let go of all controls. The CG was
quite forward with only us two in the front seats, rear and baggage
totally empty.

As the countermeasure for such pilot troubles (fear and aft CG), it
must be taught that the pilot must detect ASAP the direction of turn and
then firmly apply a lot to full opposite rudder and hold it in until the
turn rate stops. Ailerons are best kept neutral until the turning stops
and speed comes up to normal. Getting the student comfortable with these
interesting (to me) actions is vital to that pilot's future.

-Robert, CFII
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)

OK. Now that we are bragging:

Angelo Campanella, CFII
was A-33 N355Z (I heard that the next owner put it in gear up in the
1980's)

Now M20J N4668H