Ads-b and sailplanes

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 2:18:47 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:

Let's all be honest with the facts. Saying that PowerFlarm gives you "excellent" warning for Mode C equipped aircraft is a stretch. What you are really getting is a warning that tells you the altitude of the potential threat aircraft, and a rough estimate of its distance, based on some crude assumptions from the received power level of the transponder signal. Other than that, you have absolutely no idea where this aircraft is.

Well let's see. My PF gives me the altitude difference (unless you are co-altitude, it's REALLY hard to have a mid-air) and whether the Mode C traffic is getting closer or not. That is plenty of information in the VFR environment we fly gliders in, considering our maneuverability and great visibility, to put all emphasis on visual scan and finding the approaching traffic.. Or do you not believe you can see other airplanes while flying VFR?

Meanwhile, do you fly with ANY of your magic UAT ADS-B hardware when you fly your (or your club's) glider? If so, I would love to know what you have installed.

Meanwhile, I'm also getting precise position of all the fast movers via the 1090ES part of PF, and really precise collision avoidance of other PF-equipped gliders.

I guess we'll see in a few years who is right - because if the majority of ADS-B out installations in the US end up using 1090ES out, or even dual band to take advantage of the free weather and traffic info (remember, traffic info is actually just a benefit of the ADS-B program, not the raison-d'etre!), then PF will have nailed it on the head.

If this A/C is UAT ADS-B OUT equipped, this is all you will see with your PowerFlarm system. With a properly designed ADS-B receiver (either dual frequency or one supporting TIS-B and ADS-R), you would see the exact position of this aircraft within ~50 ft. If you had a NavWorx or similar transceiver, and you were within range of an ADS-B ground station, using TIS-B, you would also see the location of every other transponder equipped aircraft that is visible to ATC, regardless of whether or not it was ADS-B OUT equipped.

So, describe what ADS-B hardware, displays, software YOU would install in your glider, today. And the cost.

PowerFLARM is the only ADS-B receiver being sold in the US that is not designed to properly handle the dual frequency UAT / 1099ES environment that is the reality in US airspace. This is a huge shortcoming in the product that raises a lot of questions about the competency of the design team that put this system together.

Wow, you really have an issue with the success of Flarm, don't you? I guess the fact that it has proven to be highly successful in the rest of the world, and is practically mandatory in Europe (France for sure), and that in those markets there is NO UAT ADS-B, and that the market for PF in the US is pretty much limited to the XC and racing community, must really **** you off. Hey, go ahead and load up you glider with your fancy UAT gizmos and give us a report on how it all works - an article in Soaring would be awesome!

Meanwhile, I'll stick to what I have, knowing that it works.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 1:36:32 AM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:

http://www.navworx.com/navworx_store...DS600_EXP.html

That still won't make any aircraft equipped with this visible to a PowerFLARM.

No, but since you still have to have a Mode A/C/S transponder when you install the ADS600_EXP, that aircraft is ALREADY visible to a PowerFLARM.

You CANNOT have JUST an UAT-based ADS-B in/out system. It's either UAT-out/in WITH a Mode A/C/S transponder, OR 1090 ES ADS-B out, and UAT-in for the freebie weather and traffic, etc.

RTFM, guys!

Kirk
66

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 8:19:52 AM UTC-4, Vaughn wrote:
On 5/4/2015 3:18 AM, Mike Schumann wrote:
PowerFLARM is the only ADS-B receiver being sold in the US that is not designed to properly
handle the dual frequency UAT / 1099ES environment that is the
reality in US airspace.

Like many things you continually repeat Mike, this simply isn't so!

You can buy many single frequency ADS-B receivers. Mine (made by Dual)
also lacks the PCAS feature that is built in to Powerflarm.

Why did I buy it? Mostly for the free FAA weather.

Vaughn

The Dual XGPS170 ADS-B receiver is a properly designed unit that fully supports the US UAT/1090ES environment. It is a single frequency (UAT) receiver. However it supports TIS-B and ADS-R, so you will see all 1090ES ADS-B OUT and Mode C transponder equipped aircraft, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station AND you are ADS-B OUT equipped (either 1090ES or UAT). Without being ADS-B OUT equipped, you may see TIS-B traffic if there is an ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft in your vicinity, but I wouldn't count on that..

If you installed ADS-B OUT in your glider, this unit would give you much better collision avoidance information identifying other transponder equipped aircraft than the PCAS function available in PowerFLARM or other PCAS type devices.

Just out of curiousity, what app are you running with this unit?

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 11:13:55 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 1:36:32 AM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:

http://www.navworx.com/navworx_store...DS600_EXP.html

That still won't make any aircraft equipped with this visible to a PowerFLARM.

No, but since you still have to have a Mode A/C/S transponder when you install the ADS600_EXP, that aircraft is ALREADY visible to a PowerFLARM.

You CANNOT have JUST an UAT-based ADS-B in/out system. It's either UAT-out/in WITH a Mode A/C/S transponder, OR 1090 ES ADS-B out, and UAT-in for the freebie weather and traffic, etc.

RTFM, guys!

Kirk
66

You are totally mistaken that everyone who installs ADS-B OUT needs to have a Mode C or Mode S transponder. For starters, gliders are totally exempt from both the ADS-B OUT and transponder mandates. That also applies to all other aircraft that either do not have electrical systems, or operate outside of the Mode C veil and below 10,000 ft.

With the cost of ADS-B OUT UAT transceivers dropping below $1,000 it is totally conceivable that a significant number of glider pilots will buy these systems and not invest an extra $2K in a transponder. Some pilots may elect to invest in portable UAT transceivers that they can share in a club environment.

This will not make the glider visible to today's airliner TCAS systems, but it will make the glider visible on ATC radar. Hopefully ATC will have the common sense to vector any traffic around you. In addition, the UAT transceiver equipped glider will clearly see the big iron traffic and be able to stay out of the way.

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 5:02:29 PM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:

You are totally mistaken that everyone who installs ADS-B OUT needs to have a Mode C or Mode S transponder. For starters, gliders are totally exempt from both the ADS-B OUT and transponder mandates. That also applies to all other aircraft that either do not have electrical systems, or operate outside of the Mode C veil and below 10,000 ft.

Oh get real, Mike. The subset of aircraft that are exempt from the transponder mandate that will bother to put anykind of ADS-B is pretty small. At best, there will be a relatively cheap battery-powered system developed that will fill that niche (ultralights, powered chutes - and maybe some training gliders/towplanes. But for the rest of the aviation world, the need to fly above 10,000 and in Class C/B airspace means transponders. And if you don't need to fly there, they won't bother with any ADS-B - heck, many club gliders in the US don't even have radios!


With the cost of ADS-B OUT UAT transceivers dropping below $1,000 it is totally conceivable that a significant number of glider pilots will buy these systems and not invest an extra $2K in a transponder. Some pilots may elect to invest in portable UAT transceivers that they can share in a club environment.

You need more than just the transceivers - you need the control interface and the display system - AND an electrical system to power it. All that for less than $1000? I hope so, but I'm not holding my breath!


This will not make the glider visible to today's airliner TCAS systems, but it will make the glider visible on ATC radar. Hopefully ATC will have the common sense to vector any traffic around you. In addition, the UAT transceiver equipped glider will clearly see the big iron traffic and be able to stay out of the way.

So, if my concern is about fast movers (out West, or near a Class B airport, I'm still better off with a Mode S transponder, and eventually add the ADS-B ES kit to get full ADS-B if I want the weather. And sure, if the magical cheap UAT device starts popping up in all the flying machines in my vicinity, then I would get one too. But until all this fantasy gear is reality, I'll continue to be protected by my PowerFLARM.

And again: Would you please spec out for me your idea of an actual UAT-based ADS-B system (hardware, software, cost) that one can buy TODAY and install in their glider, that provides at least as much situational awareness as the PowerFLARM has been providing me for the past 3 years? So far, all I see is talk - but nothing remotely useful coming out of your mouth. Step up, man!

Kirk
66

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 10:52:06 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 5:02:29 PM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:

You are totally mistaken that everyone who installs ADS-B OUT needs to have a Mode C or Mode S transponder. For starters, gliders are totally exempt from both the ADS-B OUT and transponder mandates. That also applies to all other aircraft that either do not have electrical systems, or operate outside of the Mode C veil and below 10,000 ft.

Oh get real, Mike. The subset of aircraft that are exempt from the transponder mandate that will bother to put anykind of ADS-B is pretty small. At best, there will be a relatively cheap battery-powered system developed that will fill that niche (ultralights, powered chutes - and maybe some training gliders/towplanes. But for the rest of the aviation world, the need to fly above 10,000 and in Class C/B airspace means transponders. And if you don't need to fly there, they won't bother with any ADS-B - heck, many club gliders in the US don't even have radios!


With the cost of ADS-B OUT UAT transceivers dropping below $1,000 it is totally conceivable that a significant number of glider pilots will buy these systems and not invest an extra $2K in a transponder. Some pilots may elect to invest in portable UAT transceivers that they can share in a club environment.

You need more than just the transceivers - you need the control interface and the display system - AND an electrical system to power it. All that for less than $1000? I hope so, but I'm not holding my breath!


This will not make the glider visible to today's airliner TCAS systems, but it will make the glider visible on ATC radar. Hopefully ATC will have the common sense to vector any traffic around you. In addition, the UAT transceiver equipped glider will clearly see the big iron traffic and be able to stay out of the way.

So, if my concern is about fast movers (out West, or near a Class B airport, I'm still better off with a Mode S transponder, and eventually add the ADS-B ES kit to get full ADS-B if I want the weather. And sure, if the magical cheap UAT device starts popping up in all the flying machines in my vicinity, then I would get one too. But until all this fantasy gear is reality, I'll continue to be protected by my PowerFLARM.

And again: Would you please spec out for me your idea of an actual UAT-based ADS-B system (hardware, software, cost) that one can buy TODAY and install in their glider, that provides at least as much situational awareness as the PowerFLARM has been providing me for the past 3 years? So far, all I see is talk - but nothing remotely useful coming out of your mouth. Step up, man!

Kirk
66

If you want a fully functional ADS-B IN / OUT system for under $1,000 you'll probably have to wait until this fall. These systems are going to use iPAD or iPHONE apps to provide the user interface. (I'm not counting the cost of iPhone / iPAD in the price of the system, as most people have these devices anyway).

At this price point, these devices are going to be very popular in the General Aviation community. It's perplexing to me why the PowerFLARM guys don't get with the program and come up with a dual frequency ADS-B receiver or support TIS-B and ADS-R so they can have a competitive product in this space.

... For starters, gliders are totally exempt from both the ADS-B OUT and transponder mandates.

Is that really true? The way I am reading the mandate, ADS-B OUT will be required for gliders that operate inside the Mode-C veil and above 10,000 feet. I know that doesn't apply to most of us, but there are at least several operations in the West that will be directly impacted. I'd love to be mistaken about this.

On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 1:56:11 PM UTC-4, 2KA wrote:
... For starters, gliders are totally exempt from both the ADS-B OUT and transponder mandates.

Is that really true? The way I am reading the mandate, ADS-B OUT will be required for gliders that operate inside the Mode-C veil and above 10,000 feet. I know that doesn't apply to most of us, but there are at least several operations in the West that will be directly impacted. I'd love to be mistaken about this.

See https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225

The relevant section is 91.225(e). It specifically permits operation of gliders without being ADS-B OUT equipped inside the Mode C veil and above 10,000 ft as long as you are not operating in Class A, B, or C airspace. Note: You also can not operate above Class B airspace in a glider if you are not ADS-B OUT equipped.

Another interesting requirement is that above 18,000 ft, you need to be 1090ES ADS-B OUT equipped. While the statute permits you to operate with an ATC waiver, there is no guarantee that this will be authorized. It's up to the local ATC jurisdiction to make the call. It will be interesting to see how this is handled with Wave windows. Hopefully the downward pricing trends of UAT ADS-B OUT equipment will also put pressure on 1090ES vendors to sharpen their pencils. If I were planning on flying in Wave, I would probably look pretty hard at using a 1090ES solution vs. a lower cost UAT transmitter.

91.225 (e)2 confuses me.

(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted--

(1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and

(2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.

This states that I must be below 10,000 feet MSL in my non-equipped glider. Doesn't it ?

Todd

Yup, there is definitely something wrong with the language of 91.225(e), particularly 91.225(e)(2). On the one hand, it says "these aircraft may conduct operations without ADSB-Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs... (d)(4)" -- note that (d)(4) applies ONLY above 10,000 feet -- and on the other hand it says "Operations Authorized... must be conducted... Below... 10,000 MSL".

Seems to me that those two sentences are contradictory. Why would they give an exception to (d)(4) that can never be used because of (e)(2)?