Straight-ins at uncontrolled airports?

Dave writes:

They come in from all directions and at all
altitudes, and it seems that everybody has a different idea of how
wide their pattern should be.

So how wide _should_ a pattern be?

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In article ,
says...
Dave writes:

They come in from all directions and at all
altitudes, and it seems that everybody has a different idea of how
wide their pattern should be.

So how wide _should_ a pattern be?

Excactly half the width of the ones you fly.

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Duncan

In article ,
says...
chris writes:

Oh, and I forgot one other point I was going to make - if you do a
circuit at an uncontrolled field, it gives you a chance to double-
check the windsock is favourable instead of coming straight in, only
to have to do a go around if the wind is wrong.. That's if you didn't
do an overhead rejoin, which is often a good idea at uncontrolled
airfields.

An overhead region? What is that?

You really don't read the MSFS docs do yer. I'm sure a standard
overhead rejoin will be covered.

--
Duncan

Dave Doe writes:

Excactly half the width of the ones you fly.

If you don't know the answers to my questions, why do you reply?

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On Feb 10, 3:05 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
chris writes:
Oh, and I forgot one other point I was going to make - if you do a
circuit at an uncontrolled field, it gives you a chance to double-
check the windsock is favourable instead of coming straight in, only
to have to do a go around if the wind is wrong.. That's if you didn't
do an overhead rejoin, which is often a good idea at uncontrolled
airfields.

An overhead region? What is that?

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Hi

An overhead rejoin is a procedure where you approach the airfield at
500 ft above the circuit height, then after you have established the
windsock direction, let down on the non-traffic side to circuit
height, crossing over to join downwind at about the far end of the
runway, and then do the rest of the circuit as normal. Good for
seeing which direction the circuit should be going, if there is nobody
else around for you to observe in the circuit.

On Feb 10, 5:01 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Dave writes:
They come in from all directions and at all
altitudes, and it seems that everybody has a different idea of how
wide their pattern should be.

So how wide _should_ a pattern be?

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Try this in a small a/c like a 172 on your sim. Take off, climb at
about 80 knots to 500 ft agl. Climbing turn to your left so you are
pointing 90 degrees to your left. Continue climbing to 1000 ft agl.
Level out, reduce power to 2400, and turn 90 degrees to left. As you
fly downwind, have a look out the left window at the runway and you
should see it about the right spacing, although if the a/c is light
you sometimes have to level out but wait a little bit before turning
downwind or you end up a bit close. When the threshold is 45 degrees
off your left shoulder, reduce power to 1500 rpm, wait until the
airspeed is in the white arc, lower 10 flap. Do not increase rpm, and
as you get to 70 kt, turn left 90 degrees. You are now on base leg.
Maintain 70 knots and go flaps 20. When you get to 500 ft agl, you
should be ready to turn finals. Turn, and when established on finals,
lower the last 10 flap, and reduce airspeed to 60 knots, using power
as required. Land.

If you were below 500 ft on your turn to finals, you might need to
feed in more power on the way down to reduce your rate of descent. If
you were above 500 ft then you were too close on downwind.

Have a crack at that and see how you get on.

On Feb 10, 4:43 pm, "Dave" wrote:
I agree that patterns are a good idea - but many don't know or don't
care about using them properly. The local uncontrolled airport on
saturday afternoon is bad enough, but things get really crazy at
aviation events. They come in from all directions and at all
altitudes, and it seems that everybody has a different idea of how
wide their pattern should be. Having a tower doesn't necessarily
insure an orderly trafffic flow - I have seen Oshkosh descend into
chaos, as I'm sure have most who have flown in there.

David Johnson

I really hate it when some turkey decides to extend his downwind to
the next city.. I sometimes ask tower if I can cut in front and do a
short approach..

On Feb 10, 3:04 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
chris writes:
Just curious - what would you use instead?

The skies of simulation (e.g., VATSIM) are usually pretty quiet, so I've
developed somewhat of a preference for straight-in approaches, which I suppose
is a bit of a crutch. Seeing clearly to fly a pattern is also more difficult
in simulation, although it can still be done (once I fixed the twist axis of
my throttle to let me "turn my head," things got a lot easier). Very often
there are simply no other aircraft around, so flying a pattern is academic.

As I've improved in holding headings and altitude when flying by hand, I've
flown more patterns, and sometimes I do pattern work explicitly. In Class B
airspace, however, I'll usually fly a pattern with autopilot (if I'm told to
fly the pattern), because I want to make sure that I don't stray up, down, or
sideways with a lot of other traffic nearby.

I have no idea what Class B airspace is - we don't have such a beasty
here.


I can imagine all sorts of
chaos without a circuit/pattern - people coming from all different
directions all wanting to land.

Maybe. But wouldn't they just converge onto a straight path aligned with the
final approach?

This all depends on the wind. I should really have pointed this out.
For example, our local airport has a pair of grass strips, 07/25,
18/36, and seal 18/36
If I am coming from the west and there is an easterly, they will get
me to land straight in on 07
If I am coming from the west and there is a westerly, they will get me
to join downwind 25, and then they can pack in a number of aircraft on
the downwind.
If I am coming from the north and there is a westerly, I will probably
get asked to join downwind 25
If I am heavy and they know it, and coming from the west, I might end
up being asked to join right base 18 seal.

Make sense?? It's as much about where you are coming from relative to
the wind as much as squeezing traffic in.. Otherwise if we all did
straight in approaches we would have to track past the airfield,
establish where the end of the queue is, fly to it, crank it round
then land.



I'm sure there is time-tested logic behind patterns, I'm just having trouble
seeing it.


See above.

The use of a pattern at airfields is for air safety. Rather than have
aircraft flying around the field in a haphazard fashion, by using a
pattern pilots will know from where to expect other air traffic, and
be able to see it and avoid it. GA pilots flying under Visual Flight
Rules (VFR) will not be separated by air traffic control, and so the
pattern is a vital way to keep things orderly.

If everyone is spaced evenly at the same speed and altitude on the same path,
I can see that. But with people moving at potentially different speeds and
altitudes, on legs of variable length, it seems more difficult. And even
though visibility isn't as good in simulation as in real life, you still can't
look behind you in real life, either.


Yes I can!! If I fly a Cessna then you can most certainly look
behind you. Have a look in MSFS at the 172 - big window at the back
aye!! They call it the OmniVision rear window, IIRC
Everyone absolutely needs to be at the same altitude and direction -
there is a standard circuit altitude, use anything else and get real
****ed off controllers. Except for 2 situations I can think of - you
can ask for a low level circuit, which is fun, and if the weather goes
SVFR you might end up 600 ft in the circuit, but that would also be
agreed beforehand. You have some discretion over spacing but need to
adjust your speed for the guy in front.

At a busy towered airport, I'd probably request a straight-in approach if I
could get it, or file IFR and take an ILS approach.

If it is busy I wouldn't like to start asking for things..


When I'm completely alone at an airport, I've occasionally made some wild
approaches. I wouldn't do that in real life, though, because they are pretty
risky (although I usually manage to land safely).


Ever seen a meat bombing plane landing?? They do some mean
approaches!!

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chris writes:

I have no idea what Class B airspace is - we don't have such a beasty
here.

It may be called something different, but you probably have it. I think most
or all ICAO countries implement it in some form.

In Class B you need to be in contact with ATC and you need a clearance before
you can enter it. In the U.S., Class B surrounds a few dozen major airports.

Yes I can!! If I fly a Cessna then you can most certainly look
behind you. Have a look in MSFS at the 172 - big window at the back
aye!! They call it the OmniVision rear window, IIRC

Oh. Well, there's no such window on a Baron. All I can see is the passenger
seats in back.

If it is busy I wouldn't like to start asking for things..

If you file IFR you'll get an instrument approach by default, and since most
instrument approaches are ILS, that's usually straight in.

Ever seen a meat bombing plane landing?? They do some mean
approaches!!

They are more daring than I am.

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On Feb 10, 8:33 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
chris writes:
I have no idea what Class B airspace is - we don't have such a beasty
here.

It may be called something different, but you probably have it. I think most
or all ICAO countries implement it in some form.

In Class B you need to be in contact with ATC and you need a clearance before
you can enter it. In the U.S., Class B surrounds a few dozen major airports.


I see.. We have something slightly different.. Airports have a thing
called a Control Zone which is generally 10 nm in one direction from
the airfield and 5 miles the other way, and usually goes sfc-2500. We
have class C above that. I had assumed that was normal in other
countries but obviously not...

Yes I can!! If I fly a Cessna then you can most certainly look
behind you. Have a look in MSFS at the 172 - big window at the back
aye!! They call it the OmniVision rear window, IIRC

Oh. Well, there's no such window on a Baron. All I can see is the passenger
seats in back.

Ah.. Well I fly 50/50 C172 and Archer in real life but I find them a
bit slow on X-plane.. The 172 has a rear window, the Archer does not.
Also I remember when I had a crack at MSFS a while ago the Baron was
good fun and reasonably quick. I know I wouldn't have a **** show of
being able to fly one in real life.. Even our Twin Comanche at the
club is way way beyond my skills



If it is busy I wouldn't like to start asking for things..

If you file IFR you'll get an instrument approach by default, and since most
instrument approaches are ILS, that's usually straight in.

I know nothing about IFR...

Ever seen a meat bombing plane landing?? They do some mean
approaches!!

They are more daring than I am.

And me! About the most daring thing I do in a plane is making a pen
float, but last time I did that I got a bit carried away and had all
the stuff in the pockets in the back of the seats flying...


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