Slavery In Aviation

"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...
In article , C J Campbell wrote:
Until then, I am afraid that flight instructors will be either be people
who
are retired and who can afford it, like me, or those who simply live
lives
of quiet desperation.

Unfortunately, I think you're right.

I have considered flight instructing, but because of issues like having
to work for free, and the poor pay, I'd never do it at a flight
school. I'd only do it freelance.

And right there is a main issue: If you want to work for someone else, don't
bellyache, go be self-employed.

"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...
"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

No matter how you slice it, you are attempting to rationalize taking
someone's labor without paying for it.

Maybe.

Actually, NO!

I'm did not attempt to JUSTIFY anything.

Sydney, since you like to lecture people, how about lecturing people that
don't bother to comprehend what was said and what was even REMOTELY
inferred.


Frankly we can't tell.

Yes, you can. You can go back and read IN CONTEXT what was written.

Don't lecture me, and I won't lecture you.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"John Gaquin" wrote in message
...
| Quite a rant, CJ. Get a grip.
|
| "C J Campbell" wrote in message
|
| ....I think it is theft and, at bottom, an offense as serious
| as murder.
|
| One of the more patently ridiculous statements I've seen in a newsgroup.
|

It is a personal opinion. I allow others to be free to differ. I am not
alone in holding this view. Writers from Ayn Rand to Robert Ringer have
offered similar views at one time or another.

Well then you better go back and read what Rand said about context and that
of private transactions as opposed to government force and coercion. Same
thing with Ringer.

In essence, you just blew it big time. Inverted 180 degrees. You might go
back and read why she detested the libertarians (which if I recall, is how
you once identified yourself).

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...

I strongly believe that flight instructors are their own worst enemies.

I would tend to agree there, but probably for different reasons
than you think...

Most
flight instructors have college educations, since the airlines want their
pilots to be college graduates. Then they spend two or more years and tens
of thousands of dollars getting their ratings, just so they can get a job
that pays less than a burger flipper.

You do realize that I could rewrite this paragraph to read "most
physicians" or "most scientists" (except it would be hundreds of thous
on medical school instead of tens)?

All you're saying here is that becoming a pilot for the major airlines
(the goal of most CFIs) is like many other professions: after one's formal
education is complete, a lengthy apprenticeship of long hours and poor
pay is required before one qualifies to compete for a professional position.

Airline pilots have traditionally been compensated at the level of
successful specialist physicians, without the malpractice premiums and
long hours in the OR or office which the latter require. It's a very
plummy goal.

If young CFIs perceive it as worthwhile to put up with a couple years
of crap pay and crap hours for that kind of payoff rather than spending
life as an elementary school teacher earning ave. $40K a year for 30
years, that's their choice.

It's not slavery, murder, theft, or force. It's choice.

Frankly, being a full-time CFI seems to me analogous to a sales
position where the employee is paid on commission, but expected to
attend the showroom for fixed hours, field telephone questions from
potential buyers, and attend sales meetings all for minimal or no pay.

Just like a successful salesman, a CFI who markets himself well
and aggressively spends more time flying, earns more, and builds
more hours more quickly while spending less time sitting around the
FBO where he might be asked to mop a floor or fuel a plane.

No wonder people are not beating down
our doors asking for training as flight instructors!

Well, someone must be beating down some doors somewhere, because
if there were a true flight instructor shortage wouldn't you expect
working conditions and flight instructor pay to improve?

Until then, I am afraid that flight instructors will be either be people who
are retired and who can afford it, like me, or those who simply live lives
of quiet desperation.

The people who are leading lives of quiet desperation, CJ, are the
single moms who are working 60 hrs a week at WalMart and McDonalds
because they lack qualification for other jobs, and barely scraping
by while praying that the car doesn't break down and no one gets
sick or ruins his shoes. Loads of responsibility, little choice,
and little prospect of change in the future.

Most CFIs I've met are from reasonably well-to-do families. They
bitch about their hours and their pay, but meanwhile they started
out with clothes and a car and are either living at home or had
help putting down a deposit on their apartment. They know very well
that if they want to earn more money, they could get a job at a bank
or as a waiter or customer service rep or the like tomorrow. Most
don't market themselves either; they sit, and wait for their employer
to draw students in the door. And when the student does come in the
door, they might not exert themselves with enthusiasm to 'sell' flight
training to the student. They might not make follow-up phone calls;
they might not follow-up disappearing students to see why they've
stopped training.

Please note that I'm not trying to argue that CFIs never get a bum
deal from their employer, because many of them do. No question.
Nor am I saying it's fair, or that it's right.

But again: it's not theft, it's not murder, it's not force, it's
not even "quiet desperation", it's a *means to a desireable end*
that they have chosen to pursue.

Cheers,
Sydney

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...

You may find my views extreme or even ridiculous, but I think it is even
more ridiculous to pretend that wealth and power, such as that pertaining to
an employer or the government, give you the right to steal. Yet that is the
basis of the argument for most of those disagreeing with me.

Not so far as I can see.

Either your reading comprehension or your understanding would appear
to be somewhat deficient.

The basis of the argument of those who disagree with you appears to
me to be that you can not steal what I choose to give you. Most CFIs
appear to have reasonable choices and alternatives available for more
lucrative employment, and to *choose* to work as CFIs in pursuit of
long term personal goals.

If Ayn Rand is the source of your viewpoint equating unpaid work,
theft, and murder, you would appear to be reading her rather selectively.

I am not
surprised that my views offend such people. Indeed, I would be disappointed
if they did not. I would not be happy being popular with those who are
unable to rule their tongues or their passions, or who cannot control their
lust for things that are not theirs to take.

If your implication is that those who disagree with you in this
thread are unable to rule their tongues or passions, or that they
"cannot control their lust for things that are not theirs to take",
you have to take the crown as not only making some of the silliest
analogies I've ever seen, but as crowning them with some of the
most ridiculous ad hominems to emerge from a USENET dispute.

Sorry, CJ, but disagreeing with you that unpaid work equates to
theft or that theft equates to murder does not indicate lack of
control on the part of those who disagree (like myself).

Implying that it does, simply makes you look ridiculous. Again.

Sydney

On 14 Nov 2003 15:43:42 -0800, (Snowbird)
wrote:

If Ayn Rand is the source of your viewpoint equating unpaid work,
theft, and murder, you would appear to be reading her rather selectively.

I don't suppose it would help at all to point out that Rand is, at
root, not correct?

Neither are her polar opposites, but there you are.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
I strongly believe that flight instructors are their own worst enemies.

That's true of people in general (OWE), so FI's would fit in.

All the people that bitch about their job/employer/boss make some really
nauseating excuses when it's suggested they go the self-employment route.

It's a lot easier running someone else's company, than to run your own. :~)

In article , Tom S. wrote:

"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...
In article , C J Campbell wrote:
Until then, I am afraid that flight instructors will be either be people
who
are retired and who can afford it, like me, or those who simply live
lives
of quiet desperation.

Unfortunately, I think you're right.

I have considered flight instructing, but because of issues like having
to work for free, and the poor pay, I'd never do it at a flight
school. I'd only do it freelance.

And right there is a main issue: If you want to work for someone else, don't
bellyache, go be self-employed.

In an ideal world we could all do that. At the airport I learned to fly
at, we had a flying club (http://www.bayareaaeroclub.org) which did
instruction. But the instructors didn't work for the club - they were
just approved to instruct in club planes. They made the arrangements for
payment with their students, and were freelance, having club resources
to use. In that arrangement, you can actually make a living and support
yourself on flight instruction. My instructor took home two and a half
times more than those at the flight school next door - and he charged
the same as the flight school (and he charged for groundschool - which
IMHO is perfectly fair).

However, that doesn't exist at the vast majority of airports. The planes
are owned by the flight school, and your typical 18-23 year old
instructor isn't going to be able to afford their own plane to give
instruction in (unless Daddy's rich). They don't have the experience yet
to seriously go freelance either (virtually all the freelancers I've met
had at least 600-700 hours of real world flying before starting
instructing, and hence had something to bring to the student over and
above the neophyte instructors the flight school had.

I now have over 1000 hours, and I'd be happy to instruct - I consider
that I have a reasonably broad experience of real world GA flying.
Indeed, I'm going to aim at instructing in gliders on Sundays - not
for money, just for the glider club.
Unfortunately, the island I live on is a dark and forbidding place in
the winter, where the sea crashes over the sea walls and rain goes
horizontally, or Mannannan lays his cloak to protect us from the Scots,
so flight instructing for a living just ain't gonna work!
(I say this as of course Mannanan proves me wrong and the morning sun
breaks over Bradda Head)

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...
In article , Tom S. wrote:

And right there is a main issue: If you want to work for someone else,
don't
bellyache, go be self-employed.

In an ideal world we could all do that.

We can do it even in a less-than-ideal world.

At the airport I learned to fly
at, we had a flying club (http://www.bayareaaeroclub.org) which did
instruction. But the instructors didn't work for the club - they were
just approved to instruct in club planes. They made the arrangements for
payment with their students, and were freelance, having club resources
to use. In that arrangement, you can actually make a living and support
yourself on flight instruction. My instructor took home two and a half
times more than those at the flight school next door - and he charged
the same as the flight school (and he charged for groundschool - which
IMHO is perfectly fair).

So....

However, that doesn't exist at the vast majority of airports. The planes
are owned by the flight school, and your typical 18-23 year old
instructor isn't going to be able to afford their own plane to give
instruction in (unless Daddy's rich). They don't have the experience yet
to seriously go freelance either (virtually all the freelancers I've met
had at least 600-700 hours of real world flying before starting
instructing, and hence had something to bring to the student over and
above the neophyte instructors the flight school had.

Why does this pseudo-instructor feel he needs to work at THAT particular
airport?

Show me your entraprenurial spirit and tell me how YOU would solve that
dilema!

I now have over 1000 hours, and I'd be happy to instruct - I consider
that I have a reasonably broad experience of real world GA flying.
Indeed, I'm going to aim at instructing in gliders on Sundays - not
for money, just for the glider club.
Unfortunately, the island I live on is a dark and forbidding place in
the winter, where the sea crashes over the sea walls and rain goes
horizontally, or Mannannan lays his cloak to protect us from the Scots,
so flight instructing for a living just ain't gonna work!

So MOVE!

(I say this as of course Mannanan proves me wrong and the morning sun
breaks over Bradda Head)

As I said about excuses, here is more of it.

And they wonder why so many thinks the world (or XYZ Company) owes them a
living.

If you're not willing to make the effort or take the risks, then one has
noting to complain about. The entrapreneuralial spirit is alive in many, but
the "spirit" of dependence.

"Robert Perkins" wrote in message
...
On 14 Nov 2003 15:43:42 -0800, (Snowbird)
wrote:

If Ayn Rand is the source of your viewpoint equating unpaid work,
theft, and murder, you would appear to be reading her rather selectively.

I don't suppose it would help at all to point out that Rand is, at
root, not correct?

Could you substantiate your claim?

Neither are her polar opposites, but there you are.

And neither are you.