when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

"Mark" wrote in message
om...
[...]
Again, sorry to bust you like this. However I feel if you had the
balls to write this obvious lack of judgement in your flying skill,
then you open yourself up to my wrath.

Your "wrath"? LOL! That's all the wrath you've got? I've seen mice with
more wrath.

In any case, it should be clear enough to you from the direction the
thread's taken that the issue isn't quite as clear, cut, and dried as you
think it is. Perhaps you failed to notice that the original "remain clear"
instruction was given by a different controller, while the airplane was
still on the ground?

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message ...
"Mark" wrote in message
om...
[...]
Again, sorry to bust you like this. However I feel if you had the
balls to write this obvious lack of judgement in your flying skill,
then you open yourself up to my wrath.

Your "wrath"? LOL! That's all the wrath you've got? I've seen mice with
more wrath.

In any case, it should be clear enough to you from the direction the
thread's taken that the issue isn't quite as clear, cut, and dried as you
think it is. Perhaps you failed to notice that the original "remain clear"
instruction was given by a different controller, while the airplane was
still on the ground?

Pete

Pete:
I was trying to be a little nice, but I guess you expected more?

It's nice to have a NG forum to debate these issues AFTER the fact,
however in the cockpit you don't have the luxery of debating the issue
and looking up every nuance in the FAR's. The pilot was told "after
departure remain clear of the class C airspace". Then "After
departure" he was call with some trivial info and then "I turned and
headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the class C to
the surface airspace.". If a different controller told him to cross
into class C, then it's legal to ENTER class C. However I simple call
by this pilot with the phrase "Can I enter Class Charlie?" would have
done wonders to clear things up between the pilot and the new
controller.

I teach students that yes, you follow the FAR's. However when in
doubt or confused, TALK TO THE CONTROLLER AND CLEAR IT UP! You have a
brain, use it. There has been many accidents where lack of
communication was the cause. Most students want to act professional
and DON'T ask questions on the radio. However MORE private pilots
THINK since they have a license they don't NEED to ask questions.
This problem is compounded when flying with a fellow pilot, they don't
want to look stupid in front of a peer. I have more respect for a
pilot that will put their ego aside and ask a question over one that
pretends they are Mr. Right Stuff.

All this debate BS above is nice for the day after. However you need
to remember to teach the proper responce when you don't have the
luxery of time to think a problem through. Aviate, Navigate and
Communicate.

Tom Fleischman wrote in message arthlink.net...
In article . net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

I'm saying that an instruction to remain clear of Class C airspace issued to
an aircraft that has established two-way radio communications remains in
effect until another instruction is issued that permits that aircraft to
enter Class C airspace. That is not my opinion, that is a simple fact.

So Stephen, what specifically would constitute another instruction that
permits entry, and don't try and tell me that it would have to include
"cleared to enter" because that would be incorrect phraseology with
respect to Class C airspace.


how 'bout "resume own navigation"

In article ,
gross_arrow wrote:

Tom Fleischman wrote in message
arthlink.net...
In article . net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

I'm saying that an instruction to remain clear of Class C airspace issued
to
an aircraft that has established two-way radio communications remains in
effect until another instruction is issued that permits that aircraft to
enter Class C airspace. That is not my opinion, that is a simple fact.

So Stephen, what specifically would constitute another instruction that
permits entry, and don't try and tell me that it would have to include
"cleared to enter" because that would be incorrect phraseology with
respect to Class C airspace.


how 'bout "resume own navigation"

Sure that would work, along with something like, "N123AB, radar
contact, say destination and type aircraft", which was probably close
to what the original poster heard (my read of what he alluded to in his
original post).

"Mark" wrote in message
om...

Pete:
I was trying to be a little nice, but I guess you expected more?

It's nice to have a NG forum to debate these issues AFTER the fact,
however in the cockpit you don't have the luxery of debating the issue
and looking up every nuance in the FAR's. The pilot was told "after
departure remain clear of the class C airspace". Then "After
departure" he was call with some trivial info and then "I turned and
headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the class C to
the surface airspace.". If a different controller told him to cross
into class C, then it's legal to ENTER class C. However I simple call
by this pilot with the phrase "Can I enter Class Charlie?" would have
done wonders to clear things up between the pilot and the new
controller.

I teach students that yes, you follow the FAR's. However when in
doubt or confused, TALK TO THE CONTROLLER AND CLEAR IT UP! You have a
brain, use it. There has been many accidents where lack of
communication was the cause. Most students want to act professional
and DON'T ask questions on the radio. However MORE private pilots
THINK since they have a license they don't NEED to ask questions.
This problem is compounded when flying with a fellow pilot, they don't
want to look stupid in front of a peer. I have more respect for a
pilot that will put their ego aside and ask a question over one that
pretends they are Mr. Right Stuff.

All this debate BS above is nice for the day after. However you need
to remember to teach the proper responce when you don't have the
luxery of time to think a problem through. Aviate, Navigate and
Communicate.

I take it that your capitals are directed at those of us continuing the
debate beyond its useful life. Otherwise, I pitty your poor students.

You are correct that, when unsure, we should not be affraid to ask for
clarification. In this case, the flying pilot wasn't unsure. He did what he
thought was permissible. He had no reason to ask for clarification from the
controller.

If the non-flying pilot thought it was wrong, he should have said so. Maybe
the CRM wasn't what it should be. Maybe it didn't occur to him until he was
on the ground. For whatever reason, the non-flying pilot must not have been
sure enough of himself to question it in the air. He was right to voice it
at some time, for his own education.

I happen to believe that the pilot was correct, did not need to ask for
permission and was free to enter the class C. But, thanks to all this debate
BS, I at least now know that it may not be clear cut. The next time I talk
to the controllers at my home base, I'll ask them.

-------------------------------
Travis

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message link.net...
I take it that your capitals are directed at those of us continuing the
debate beyond its useful life. Otherwise, I pitty your poor students.


When instructing I usually end a comment like that with a Howard Dean
"AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHHH".

Howdy!

In article . net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...

[snip]

But I could still be wrong, so I just polled both the Supervisor of a
Class C airspace, and I polled the supervisor of the Michigan FSDO...
Both agree that the AIM is correct... A pilot is cleared into the class
C when the controller establishes radio contact using the tail number;
and does not instruct him to remain clear... Nothing more is required...

That's true, but that's not what happened in this case. In this case the
pilot was instructed to remain clear of the Class C airspace.

So, on the first call the pilot was told, "Aircraft calling remain clear
of Charlie?, or "November 1234 remain clear of Class Charlie.",
or words to that effect... Fine, we all agree he is to remain clear...
Now the controller calls a bit later and says something to the effect,
"November 1234, radar contact 8 miles east of xyz, altimeter 30
point 00", or some variation and shuts up - because he has
established radio contact which is 'the clearance to enter'...

Wrong. Radio contact was established when the controller said, "November
1234 remain clear of Class Charlie."

....and once again with "November 1234, radar contact..." Where, in that
"radar contact" communication, does the controller say "remain clear..."?

If N1234 was to remain clear, the controller needed to say so. If the
"remain clear" instruction was to remain in place, what approved phraseology
would the controller then use to remove the restriction? You keep insinuating
that there must be some magic phrase, but you don't tell us what it is.

So, I asked both, wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to
enter the C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing
radio contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM..

Yes, if nothing else is said that is correct. But in this case the aircraft
was instructed to remain clear of Class C airspace and that instruction
remains in effect until some instruction is issued that permits entry.

And what would that instruction be, if "November 1234, radar contact..."
were not sufficient (as clearly laid out in the AIM)? Pray enlighten us.

yours,
Michael

--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

Howdy!

In article . net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
. com...

[snip]
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?


It ends upon receipt of ATC instructions that permit entry.

....such as "November 1234, radar contact..."

yours,
Michael


--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

Howdy!

In article . net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Tom Fleischman" wrote in
message
rthlink.net...

[snip]

You lost me. If a pilot requests to transition a class C, the controller
has
several options: 1) ignore the call. 2) "aircraft calling, remain clear of
the class C." 3) "Cessna 1234, remain clear of the class C." 4) "Cessna
1234, standby" 5) "Cessna 1234, roger." 6) "Cessna 1234, altimeter setting
30.04." or even 7) "Cessna 1234 transition approved."

But the pilot didn't request transition through the Class C airspace, the
pilot requested clearance through the Class C airspace.

Baloney.

The original poster said nothing about asking to be "cleared" into/
through the Class C. He was just looking for flight following.

[snip]

Because responding "Cessna 1234 cleared through Class C airspace" is simpler
than explaining to the guy that there are no clearances for VFR transition
of Class C airspace.

....so responding to incorrect phraseology with more incorrect phraseology is
how you would handle this?

yours,
Michael


--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

There's nothing unrealistic about a controller forgetting about traffic.
Happens all the time.


Actually, it's pretty rare. What does happen fairly often is pilots miss
radio calls shipping them to another frequency. These pilots don't realize
they've missed a few radio calls and wrongly assume ATC forgot about them.



That was rhetorical. You don't have the authority to set the
parameters for the hypothetical situation, since you didn't pose
the situation.


I set no parameters. I simply assumed Mr. Drescher was asking a real-world
hypothetical question.



You know what you'd like all controllers to do always. But they don't
comply.


I know what all controllers are supposed to do, you aren't in a position to
know if they comply with requirements.



Your claim that the absence of a strip is why the "remain clear" is no
longer valid the next day.


I didn't make such a claim.



Either the strip is important or it's not. If it's not (as you are now
saying), then its absence the next day is completely irrelevant to the
question of whether the "remain clear" is still in effect.


The strip is a part of it. It is the record of the contact. The strip was
placed in the discard pile when the controller concluded he no longer wanted
Class C services.