BOHICA! Weiner's Bill to Restrict GA

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:Qof1d.427276$%_6.90413@attbi_s01...

I have no source other than reading it in New England newspapers back
in
1969 - 1971.

Uh, and which of Kerry's "associates" were implicated in this alleged
forgery, according to your uncorroborated 35-year-old recollection?

VVAW was doing some of that, yes. However, I have no stamps with Kerry's
DNA
on them. I might point out that the complaints former POWs have about
Kerry
are also 35 year old recollections. I guess if you want, you can say that
anything that happened that long ago did not happen. That would be your
typical liberal response: if you don't like the truth, accuse others of
lying.

I haven't accused you of lying, CJ. I just think you live in a parallel
universe where 35-year-old newspaper articles implicating "Kerry and
associates" in a forgery have somehow vanished from all the archives,
leaving your personal recollection of those articles as the sole remaining
testament. (Meanwhile, in your universe as revealed in another recent
thread, Bush had not been informed of the second WTC crash or explicitly
told "We are under attack" just before he spent seven minutes reading "My
Pet Goat". Apparently your world is so glutted with fanciful events that
there's no room left for the real ones.)

"Lying" presupposes the ability to distinguish truth from falsehood. Your
blithe dismissal of the need for corroboration (which would be readily
available in this instance if your recollection were accurate) shows that
you don't even try to distinguish the truth from whatever you would like
to believe.

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:PMk1d.37052$MQ5.21683@attbi_s52...

"Lying" presupposes the ability to distinguish truth from falsehood. Your
blithe dismissal of the need for corroboration (which would be readily
available in this instance if your recollection were accurate) shows that
you don't even try to distinguish the truth from whatever you would like
to believe.

Ah, so I am not a liar, merely delusional. So, if a guy says he was fighting
in Cambodia in 1968 and listening to a Christmas broadcast by President
Nixon, is he a liar or delusional? And do you want his finger on the nuclear
trigger?

in article , C J Campbell at
wrote on 9/12/04 7:57 PM:


"Philip Sondericker" wrote in message
...
in article , C J Campbell at
wrote on 9/12/04 3:52 PM:


"Philip Sondericker" wrote in message
...


Never heard of that one. Do you have a source for this?


It was so bad that the Army took out newspaper ads debunking the fake
telegrams and saying that from now on relatives of Vietnam casualties
would
be notified personally.

Never heard of that one. Do you have a source for this?


I have no source other than reading it in New England newspapers back in
1969 - 1971. The AP has been reporting similar activities in connection with
the Iraq war, although not all of those are anti-war protesters. Some of
them were simply mean people attempting to con people out of death benefits.
In those cases the con men would show up in military uniform and attempt to
get spouses and others to sign papers releasing their rights to death
benefits, which has to be the absolute lowest of the low. There were
flurries of that in April and August of 2003, as well as anti-war activists
in Southern California calling the families of Marines at Camp Pendleton,
saying that they were from the Red Cross and that their Marine had been
killed.

The Internet has provided a new twist: some Arab Americans are reporting
that people are sending out hate mail using their email addresses in an
attempt to inflame anti-Arab sentiment.

So the same stuff that went on during Vietnam perpetuates itself. I don't
know why you seem so surprised at this -- it isn't exactly an original idea.
But, if you want to believe that it never happens, suit yourself.

Huh? What are you talking about? I simply asked if you had a source for your
story about Kerry faking telegrams. You could've just said "no" and saved
yourself the trouble of this rambling response.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:PMk1d.37052$MQ5.21683@attbi_s52...

"Lying" presupposes the ability to distinguish truth from falsehood. Your
blithe dismissal of the need for corroboration (which would be readily
available in this instance if your recollection were accurate) shows that
you don't even try to distinguish the truth from whatever you would
like to believe.

Ah, so I am not a liar, merely delusional.

Merely mis-remembering something from 35 years ago is a routine lapse and
does not constitute delusion. But to insist that a distant memory on a
partisan matter is necessarily reliable and requires no fact-checking, and
to cling to that memory in the absence of corroboration and in the presence
of
strong contrary evidence, is to willfully dwell in a fantasy world.

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:Psr1d.43642$D%.42217@attbi_s51...
"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:PMk1d.37052$MQ5.21683@attbi_s52...

"Lying" presupposes the ability to distinguish truth from falsehood.
Your
blithe dismissal of the need for corroboration (which would be readily
available in this instance if your recollection were accurate) shows
that
you don't even try to distinguish the truth from whatever you would
like to believe.

Ah, so I am not a liar, merely delusional.

Merely mis-remembering something from 35 years ago is a routine lapse and
does not constitute delusion. But to insist that a distant memory on a
partisan matter is necessarily reliable and requires no fact-checking, and
to cling to that memory in the absence of corroboration and in the
presence
of
strong contrary evidence, is to willfully dwell in a fantasy world.

I have seen no contrary evidence, strong or otherwise, to my memory of 35
years ago, nor has anyone even attempted to present any.

However, Kerry repeated his story about being in Cambodia in 1968 many times
over the years, even after the errors in it were pointed out to him. He also
continued to allege that war crimes by American troops were the norm, even
after it was pointed out to him that there was no evidence of that. He was
telling the story to the Boston Herald in 1979 (comparing his experiences
with the movie "Apocalypse Now"), which is a lot less than 35 years after
the fact.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=40056 is one
reference for this, but Google on "Kerry Cambodia 1968" will show numerous
discussions of the many times that he has told this lie.

I have to wonder about the fantasy world you live in. You seem perfectly
willing to swallow anything that Kerry has to say, but anyone who disagrees
with you is either a liar or delusional.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
Merely mis-remembering something from 35 years ago is a routine lapse and
does not constitute delusion. But to insist that a distant memory on a
partisan matter is necessarily reliable and requires no fact-checking,
and
to cling to that memory in the absence of corroboration and in the
presence
of
strong contrary evidence, is to willfully dwell in a fantasy world.

I have seen no contrary evidence, strong or otherwise, to my memory of 35
years ago, nor has anyone even attempted to present any.

The evidence I presented consists of the observation that despite many
researchers (partisan and otherwise) poring over the public (and private)
record concerning both Kerry's and Bush's actions 35 years ago, no
right-wing blogger and no ratings-hungry corporate news outlet has
publicized the newspaper articles that allegedly link "Kerry and associates"
to what you claim they perpetrated: a cruel hoax in which they forged
telegrams that gave false notice of combat deaths!

I already pointed this evidence out to you (contrary to your assertion just
above). Incredibly, your response was that the forgery has not been
publicized because it is not interesting enough for anyone to care about!
Neither Kerry's enemies, nor the prime-time ratings-mongers, consider it
worth mentioning! That response shows the absurd lengths to which you will
go to rationalize your pet beliefs.

However, Kerry repeated his story about being in Cambodia in 1968 many
times
over the years, even after the errors in it were pointed out to him.

Kerry has acknolwedged the error and amended his statement accordingly. As I
said earlier, it is not remarkable for you (or Kerry, or anyone else) to
have years-old memories that drift from the facts. What is remarkable is is
your stalwart, systematic lack of concern for evidence.

I have to wonder about the fantasy world you live in. You seem perfectly
willing to swallow anything that Kerry has to say, but anyone who
disagrees
with you is either a liar or delusional.

Here again you are simply pulling imagined facts out of thin air, apparently
without even knowing or caring that you are doing so. Concerning your first
claim, I never "swallowed" Kerry's mistaken statement about 1968, and I
disagree with a great deal he says. You haven't the slightest reason to
believe the contrary, yet you blithely assert the contrary as fact.
Concerning your second claim, I have had numerous discussions in this very
newsgroup in which I disagreed with others, sometimes quite strongly,
without accusing them of dissembling or delusion. But that doesn't stop you
from asserting the contrary as fact. That is why I say you live in a
fantasy world. You have a pattern of saying and believing whatever is
convenient for you to say and believe, without even pausing to consider
whether it's true.

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
newsKA1d.46840$D%.38245@attbi_s51...

However, Kerry repeated his story about being in Cambodia in 1968 many
times
over the years, even after the errors in it were pointed out to him.

Kerry has acknolwedged the error and amended his statement accordingly.

He has not. He still claims to have been sent to Cambodia, only now he says
he got the year wrong. In order for that to have happened, Nixon would have
had to have ordered Kerry to Cambodia less than a month after taking office,
because that is when Kerry went home. Yet Kerry says he was sent there five
times, shot at by Christian Vietnamese celebrating Christmas, and listened
to a Christmas broadcast there. None of his crew members, even those that
support him, claim to have ever been sent to Cambodia.

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

According to AOPA and EAA e-newsletters, a NY Congressman, aptly named
Weiner, proposes Dracinian measures against GA:

Update off AOPA's web site --

AOPA fights to stop Weiner bill in its tracks

AOPA is fighting in the halls of Congress to make sure that the anti-general aviation
bill (H.R. 5035) introduced by New York Democratic Congressman Anthony D. Weiner
doesn't even get a toehold.

"We're using our professional Washington, D.C.-based legislative staff and our
personal, ongoing relationships with powerful members of Congress to drive a stake
through the heart of this ill-conceived bill," said AOPA President Phil Boyer. "The
congressmen closest to aviation issues know exactly how AOPA members feel about this
legislation."

The first opportunity for the ill-advised security legislation to advance would be
this Wednesday when the House considers the "mark-up" of legislation implementing
recommendations from the 9/11 Commission. (A mark-up is the meeting of a
congressional committee to review and amend a bill before sending it to the full
House or Senate for consideration.)

Weiner could try to offer his bill as an amendment to that legislation, but AOPA has
lobbied hard — and will continue to do so — to prevent that.

On Sept. 8, the same day Weiner released his bill, an AOPA legislative affairs staff
member met with Rep. Sam Graves (R-Mo.), a member of the House aviation subcommittee,
to express opposition to the bill. Graves, a pilot and AOPA member, confirmed he
would oppose the bill and made sure AOPA's staff had a copy of it, even before it was
publicly available.

AOPA also contacted subcommittee members Robin Hayes (R-N.C.) and Leonard Boswell
(D-Iowa), both pilots and AOPA members.

AOPA talked to the staff of aviation subcommittee Chairman John Mica (R-Fla.) and
Ranking Member Peter DeFazio (D-Ore.); with chairman of the full committee, Don Young
(R-Alaska); and with James Oberstar (D-Minn.), the ranking member. Any aviation
legislation ultimately has to be approved by the Transportation and Infrastructure
Committee, chaired by Young.

"It was very clear from all of our contacts that there is significant opposition to
this bill within the committees," said Jon Hixson, AOPA vice president of Legislative
Affairs. With that kind of opposition, it would be very difficult for the bill to
advance.

But AOPA is keeping the pressure on. AOPA met with Weiner's staff on Sept. 9,
outlining the association's opposition to the bill and providing information on the
steps already being taken to secure general aviation, including AOPA's Airport Watch
program.

And AOPA is already talking to key contacts in the Senate, in an attempt to forestall
the introduction of a similar bill in that body.

"Weiner's bill would have to clear a lot of hurdles before it would even be
considered by the House," said Boyer. "There are significant checks and balances to a
piece of legislation like this — the subcommittee, full committee, full House — then
the same over in the Senate.

"With our long experience in lobbying Congress, we know when and how to target
politicians to express our position," Boyer added. "Rarely has AOPA ever been placed
in a position to bring in the full power of our 400,000 members to stop a bill on
either the House or Senate floor because we work at being effective well prior to
that point."

Weiner's bill would require the Transportation Security Administration to set up
airline-style passenger screening at every landing facility in the United States
(some 19,500) to screen every passenger boarding every general aviation aircraft
(more than 211,000) for every flight (more than 43 million per year). That means the
TSA would have to conduct an additional 108 million passenger screenings at more than
19,000 facilities where TSA today doesn't currently have any officers. (Data from
AOPA's 2004 Fact Card.)

But Weiner's bill doesn't stop there. It would also require every pilot of every
flight to remain "in contact with the Federal Aviation Administration regardless of
the altitude of such aircraft." That would increase the workload of air traffic
controllers by at least nine times, requiring the agency to significantly increase
the size of the workforce and to install new communications and radar equipment to
cover all the areas of the country.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

The full text of the bill finally showed up on Thomas. You can read it
by going to http://thomas.loc.gov/ and typing "HR-5035" into the "bill
number" box in the upper-left hand corner of the page. You can also see
it as a PDF by clicking on

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...08_cong_bills&
docid=f:h5035ih.txt.pdf

You can do a search for Weiner and go to his website and send him an email
asking him what he is thinking. I just did.
What a knothead. He wants to make it illegal to fly within 1500 feet of a
building..............or over a city of more than 1 million population.
Jim
"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
The full text of the bill finally showed up on Thomas. You can read it
by going to http://thomas.loc.gov/ and typing "HR-5035" into the "bill
number" box in the upper-left hand corner of the page. You can also see
it as a PDF by clicking on

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...08_cong_bills&
docid=f:h5035ih.txt.pdf