Class D Sucks

"Your interpretation is as correct as any other."

A bit of tongue-in-cheek, perhaps?

What I don't understand, is why don't people just ask for a clarification
when one is needed? It just doesn't seem like the airspace would be very
safe if everyone ran around doing what they THOUGHT someone instructed them
to do.

To coin a whatever: "If you have to ask, you might look stupid, but if you
don't ask, you might look dead. Take your choice".




"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"john szpara" wrote in message
news:1103668495.fa76b9a7292886cc9ad13045780a10bb@t eranews...

I didn't mean to create a scrap here.

FYI, I'm not itinerant at KHWD, it's my home airport.

What I meant was, I was not given specific instructions, as is often
the case at Hayward. You are normall told to fly to a specific point,
don't break certain altitudes, etc.

When the controller said "modified straight in", and no other
instructions, I assumed that to mean that I could fly at pilot's
discretion. For those of you with more hours than I (300), please
correct me if I'm wrong.


Your interpretation is as correct as any other.

It does not have to be written down to be specified or to be specific.

I suppose not. But if it isn't, the controller must explain what it means
each time he uses the phrase.

No, just each time he uses the phrase with a pilot that doesn't
understand it. If most pilots flying there are based there, and the
phrase is used often enough (and consistantly enough) and CFI/radio
osmosis occurs (this is not at all farfetched), then a lot of radio
time is saved, because most of the time it will not need to be explained.

I do agree that this is not sufficient justification to invent phrases
willy nilly. But it's really no different from "N42312 report the tanks".

When the controller said "modified straight in", and no other
instructions, I assumed that to mean that I could fly at pilot's
discretion. For those of you with more hours than I (300), please
correct me if I'm wrong.

I would disagree (which is different from "you're wrong" . I would
take "modified straight in" to be a specific and common course which
makes sense given the geography of the place, and if I didn't know
what course that was, I'd ask. Absent altitude restrictions, I'd
assume altitude is at the pilot's discretion (within the FARs).

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

My appologies, I didn't get the whole thred, however,

I am based at HWD, and have been there daily for almost a year and
have never heard a "Modified straight in" clerance. 'Hayweird' does
get some interesting traffic due to its proximity to OAK (Oakland
Intl, less than 10nm and between 29 and 27L/R. This is a new one on
me.

Jon Wanzer
CP ASEL / IA
AGI IGI (CFI / CFII soon-to-be)
San Jose,CA

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:35:56 -0800, john szpara
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:49:20 GMT, Jose
wrote:


That's how it can be otherwise. "Modified straight in" is specified
in this same manner, although it ends up specified only to the locals.
Itinerants are left with a question, which should be asked. While
this may seem wickedly dangerous, the tradeoff is that less air time
on a busy channel is used up saying "modified straight in" (which
most pilots there understand) than saying "start at the intersection
of I210 and I14 and follow the channel southbound towards the runway".
I am presuming that the actual flight path has a good reason, and
simply not using that flight path is not an option.

I didn't mean to create a scrap here.

FYI, I'm not itinerant at KHWD, it's my home airport.

What I meant was, I was not given specific instructions, as is often
the case at Hayward. You are normall told to fly to a specific point,
don't break certain altitudes, etc.

When the controller said "modified straight in", and no other
instructions, I assumed that to mean that I could fly at pilot's
discretion. For those of you with more hours than I (300), please
correct me if I'm wrong.
John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT

What I don't understand, is why don't people just ask for a clarification
when one is needed? It just doesn't seem like the airspace would be very
safe if everyone ran around doing what they THOUGHT someone instructed
them
to do.

Precisely.

And what makes Class D so dangerous is that

a) Everyone THINKS they know what they're doing, when, in fact, many are
interpreting things differently
b) The controller THINKS he knows where everyone is.
c) The controller is often so busy that asking for clarification is
extremely difficult

The day I wrote about, getting a word in edgewise would have been
darned-near impossible for Mary...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:Ecfyd.513$k25.152@attbi_s53...

Precisely.

And what makes Class D so dangerous is that



b) The controller THINKS he knows where everyone is.


The controller get his information from the pilots. Pilots are frequently
not where they THINK they are and provide bad information to the controller.

The Bob Collins (of WGN Radio) crash north of Chicago comes immediately to
mind...

IIRC, that was almost totally the result of bad position reporting.



"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:Ecfyd.513$k25.152@attbi_s53...

Precisely.

And what makes Class D so dangerous is that



b) The controller THINKS he knows where everyone is.


The controller get his information from the pilots. Pilots are frequently
not where they THINK they are and provide bad information to the
controller.

"Steven P. McNicoll" roncachamp@ wrote
The controller get his information from the pilots. Pilots are frequently
not where they THINK they are and provide bad information to the
controller.

I do have to agree with you on this one Steve. I'd be rich if I'd had a
dollar for every time I've seen or heard a pilot exclaim they are at some
location, when in fact said location is any where from 1 to 5 miles in front
of them.

If you're not "directly over it" then you're not there yet!

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

"PJ Hunt" wrote in message
...

I do have to agree with you on this one Steve. I'd be rich if I'd had a
dollar for every time I've seen or heard a pilot exclaim they are at some
location, when in fact said location is any where from 1 to 5 miles in
front
of them.

If you're not "directly over it" then you're not there yet!


I see this frequently, and it's often much more than five miles off.
Somebody will report five miles out just as they're crossing the ten mile
range mark, and it's not just the low end guys either.

I've often wondered why some pilots report their position at all when
contacting the tower. It's in Class C airspace, they were radar identified
at some point and never told radar contact lost or terminated. I know
exactly where they are when they call.

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:24:40 GMT, Jon Wanzer
wrote:

My appologies, I didn't get the whole thred, however,

I am based at HWD, and have been there daily for almost a year and
have never heard a "Modified straight in" clerance. 'Hayweird' does
get some interesting traffic due to its proximity to OAK (Oakland
Intl, less than 10nm and between 29 and 27L/R. This is a new one on
me.


Hayward (weird) *is* a strange place to fly into. The ILS for 29 is 1
mile to the left, and the ILS for 27 is 2.5 miles to the right.
Oakland is basically two airports. It has class C airspace, which
starts barely a 1/2 mile off the end of HWD's runways.

SFO's class B airspace lays above. SJC's class C starts 10 miles
south. Flying anywhere in this area is like an obstacle course.

As for the "modified straight in", I didn't give any thought to it at
the time. I was given no other instructions, point to fly to, or
traffic to follow, so I flew a route at my discretion.
John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT

b) The controller THINKS he knows where everyone is.

The controller get his information from the pilots. Pilots are frequently
not where they THINK they are and provide bad information to the
controller.

Sorry, Steven -- I didn't mean to imply anything else.

That's exactly what I meant.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"