Puchaz spin count 23 and counting

Derrick Steed wrote:

I go on the recommendation of the people who repack mine - the parachute
club at Sibson: they recommend no long than four months between repacks

Thanks. That's the same interval used in the U.S. I
presume you are in the U.K. Is that interval a requirement,
or just a suggestion?
Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

I've never seen a requirement from the BGA - but then maybe I'm not reading
the right things. It's not a suggestion I'm making, I was concerned that I
maintained my pack properly in the event I needed to use it.

The club I was at before the current one used to invite parachute
instructors down from Sibson for winter lectures on the care, feeding and
proper use of parachutes - my experience (although it doesn't seem to have
had any effect on the ability the parachute of those who have used them in
anger) is that most people in the gliding movement (here's where I get to
collect a lot of arrows, I bet) don't know what the proper deployment
procedure is. I hadn't been shown and didn't know until I went to Sibson and
was asked if I knew how to use it - I replied yes, of course, and was
promptly corrected and shown the correct and surefire method.

My own feeling is that there is not enough education available via the BGA
regarding parachutes, their care, use, and maintenance.

Rgds,

Derrick.

In article ,
Todd Pattist wrote:
Derrick Steed wrote:

I go on the recommendation of the people who repack mine - the parachute
club at Sibson: they recommend no long than four months between repacks

Nothing personally against the parachute folks you go to (I have no
idea about them specifically), but isn't this like asking
the monkeys how often you should feed them bananas?
I assume they're making money per repack, right?

Reminds me of an instructor who's given over 500 hours dual in
the past two years and gotten one student through license.
His answer to every student: "you need more training!"

I did once meet a power flying instructor like that. My reasoning is going to the parachute club was this:
1. the chief instructor of the parachute club is well respected in the UK parachute world
2. in my judgement (OK, I'm ignorant but I can smell a rat - GWB has the longest tail I've ever seen) he seemed professional and knew what he was talking about
3. his selling technique of his particular snake oil (as you are implying) was excellent - and I saw them using the oil when I was there, from 10,000 feet no less - jumping from a ukrainian aircraft (them damn commies!)
4. his legs seemed to be long enough and I couldn't detect any signs of scrape marks on his knuckles, and he wasn't overly disposed to scratching his armpits or swinging from the nearby trees - now this is something where I consider myself an expert: most managers I've met do qualify in the armpit scratching and swinging from branches department
5. Surprise at the exchange of money for work is a real surprise coming from the home of capitalism.
Rgds,

Derrick.

Derrick Steed wrote:
In article ,
Todd Pattist wrote:
Derrick Steed wrote:


Nothing personally against the parachute folks you go to (I have no
idea about them specifically), but isn't this like asking
the monkeys how often you should feed them bananas?
I assume they're making money per repack, right?

Reminds me of an instructor who's given over 500 hours dual in
the past two years and gotten one student through license.
His answer to every student: "you need more training!"

I did once meet a power flying instructor like that. My reasoning is going to the parachute club was this:
5. Surprise at the exchange of money for work is a real surprise coming from the home of capitalism.

Easy now. At my house I am considered "Chief Tightwad." Anyone
telling me I should accept a 100% or even 50% cost increase
(1 extra repack per season, and the season lasts 6 months or 1 year)
for what may be negligible improvement in safety (or even
a decrease in safety) is gonna get a lot of questions.

Perhaps a better question is:
"There are a bunch of riggers in other countries, including
the US PIA as a whole (by a 3:1 margin), and they say 180 days
is fine. How are you more qualified than them, or what is
different about the UK, the riggers here, my chute, or me
to warrant the 120 days instead?"

Then I'd ask if there was a different chute I could get that
would give me a longer repack cycle.

For the extra $50 to $100 a year, I'd expect a good answer.
But keep in mind I'm a serious TIGHTWAD. :P

By the way,
http://www.pia.com/piapubs/pia_posit...day_repack.htm
seems to think Great Britain has a six month cycle.
Dunno where that came from...

Rgds,

Derrick.

Derrick,

keep in mind none of this has anything to do with a critique
of you or the parachute rigger you use. I have no idea
about the answers to any of those questions, I'm sure you've done
a fine job looking into it, and there are other reasons to
do 120 day cycles (maybe it gets you in for an "egress refresher
course") which have nothing to do with the chute itself.
This is just an interesting subject, again, nothing about
anyone personally...ok?

I have a friend who only repacks his chute once per year, generally
around the beginning of his contest season. His plan if questioned by
the FAA is as follows:

FAA: This parachute is out of date.

Pilot: That's not a parachute; it's a seat cushion.

FAA: It clearly states it's a parachute, and I see by the repack card
that it is out of date.

Pilot: When I get it repacked, it will be a parachute again. For now,
it's a seat cushion. And if I want to jump out of an aircraft with
only a seat cushion attached to my bottom, that's my business, not
yours.

Derrick Steed wrote:


I've never seen a requirement from the BGA - but then maybe I'm not reading
the right things. It's not a suggestion I'm making, I was concerned that I
maintained my pack properly in the event I needed to use it.

I was asking if you faced a penalty for flying with your
parachute 4 months and 1 day after your last repack. In the
U.S., if I was to do that, I could (at least in theory) lose
my license to fly. I take it that you face no such
sanction.
Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are correct, there is no penalty.

Although most clubs now where parachutes as a matter of course (following some
thinly veiled threats from a certain national coach as was) there is no law
as such. Since I came back to gliding in 1989 after a long break it's always
been my understanding that pilots of single seaters contemplating cross
countries or aerobatics were recommended to where a parachute by the BGA -
the practice has only recently (a few years) been adopted for dual trainers.

In some ways the picture is worse: there are no standards mandated by the CAA
or anyone else relating to emergency parachutes for gliders. When I bought my
first parachute (Thomas Sports Equipment pop-top) little advice was available
other than "by a GQ or Irvin a cheap parachute is not worth the money", so I
did my own research (where I learned there is no CAA standard, or British
Standard [materials yes, complete thing, no]. There was once a CAA approved
parachute - I inherited one when I bought a Dart 17, it was made by Irvin in
1968 and had been approved by the CAA (I bought the Dart in 1990) for the
World championships some time in the 60's.

Rgds,

Derrick.

Not shooting, just buzzing....
Not Government but BGA Laws &Rules:
Parachutes
RP16.
...The owner should ensure that it is checked regularly
by a competent authority. The interval should not be
greater than three months or the manufacturer's recommendation,...
..

RP17
Serviceable parachutes should be warn by the occupant(s)
of gliders opertated from BGA sites, subject to the
glider being fitted to accept the occupant(s) wearing
parachute(s).


Dave Martin wrote:
Until I am shot down, in the UK there are no government
regulations on repacking dates for glider pilots personal
reserve parachutes.

In article ,
Simon Kahn wrote:
Not shooting, just buzzing....
Not Government but BGA Laws &Rules:
Parachutes
RP16.
..The owner should ensure that it is checked regularly
by a competent authority. The interval should not be
greater than three months or the manufacturer's recommendation,...

Yep, in the US that would be 60 days, since some natural fiber chutes
require this. The "or the manufacturer's recommendation" gives
huge leeway...

www.butlerparachutes.com/repack.htm

gives some insight here...

I've read most of this discussion about spinning and spin training and I feel somewhat saddened by the polarization of views that I have seen thoughout.

My glider training started in the late 1960's and that is when I learned all about spin recovery (as taught to me at the time mostly by an ex army air corp pilot), this was all carried out after release from aero tow and never initiating an entry below 1500 feet, in fact that was the intended lowest recovery altitude for any maneuvre of this kind. After a long break from 1976 to 1989 (with a brief non-solo spell for a few weeks at club nearby in 1984) I joined a club and went solo again. A year later I bought a Dart 17 and started to enjoy flying it

During one of my early flights in the Dart (by this time I only had a few tens of hours recent flying) I was in a thermal above a ridge and responded incorrectly to a sudden wing drop with an associated nose down change in pitch (it was a rough thermal) - the Dart spun (they do that if you ask in the right tone of voice). Moving the stick forward had no effect, in fact putting the stick anywhere had no effect, the only thing that did work (once I had correctly recognized the situation) was the correct spin recovery procedure - I don't recall how many turns this was, maybe one or two, but by this time I was fairly close to the ground. It wasn't the proximity of the ground which had my attention, I was more concerned with correcting the situation in hand and thus avoiding the bone crunching intervention of the ground. During the recovery from the ensuing dive I did become more aware of the proximity of the ground (it seemed to be only a few hundred feet, if that) and worried a!
bout getting back to the upwind side of the ridge - my reaction here was to only partially recover from the dive and keep a good amount of speed on to push forward to the front of the ridge (another thing that was drummed into me in the 60's was to keep the speed up when close to the ground). I certainly remember the ground rush effect during the dive, but not during the initial part of the recovery, I think I was too busy trying to do the correct the situation at that time.

From what I can recall, the entry to this spin was initiated at less 1000 feet above ground level (It's hard to be exact, the top of the ridge - above Whipsnade lion enclosure was my belief at the time - was higher than the launch point) - the prospect of finishing up in that enclosure certainly focused my mind at the time.

What had been drummed into me back in the 60's were the following:
1. recognition of the flight mode I was in (e.g. in a spin), I believe this is one of the factors which contributed to my safe return that day
2. the correct procedure to use and how to apply it, I believe this was the other factor
3. there was talk of incipient spins and the recovery from same (a "judicious" bootful of rudder and get the nose down - there's been some argument about that already - I'm saying this is the correct action, just reporting what I remember I was instructed to do at the time)
4. one particular thing that I noticed on my return to gliding in the late 80's was the political incorrectness of term "incipient spin", and the insistence on use of the term "stall with a wing drop" - I recall a test pilot I know telling me about his time at Edwards AFB and the political incorrectness of PIO, instead it is now termed "Pilot Aircraft Coupling" - I have to ask: does it really matter whether we call it fishpaste or salmon pate? Isn't it more important that we understand the mechanics of what is happening and what to do when it does?

Lastly: I have noticed that in human affairs, there is the adoption of "fashions" - be it clothes, mannerisms, procedures, whatever. If is often not clear to me which point of view is the correct one (maybe I'm just thick - not very, mind you, just a bit). The only thing I can be certain of is that actual experience of a situation and the effect of the actions one took to correct. It worked for me - IN A DART - that doesn't necessarily mean I would do the correct thing in a different situation, but the training I receive should ensure that I can recognize it and apply what is known to be a correct recovery procedure.

I flew the Puchacz on an instructors course in 1995 and found it to be a nice aircraft to fly - we were well instructed in it's idiosyncracies and it was noted that it was a good spin trainer. We were shown that it is possible to spin the puch such that a "proper" spin recovery procedure must be used to effect a return to normal flight. We were also shown how much K13 vary in their characteristics with regard to spinning, Lasham had 9 at the time, they were all different - some spun like a top, others were very reluctant. Personally, I wouldn't attempt to teach spins on any aircraft in which I wasn't current and very familiar with. I don't currently have an instructors rating and haven't for some years - it's a dangerous trade.

Rgds,

Derrick.

In article , Todd Pattist
writes:

I'd heard a few comments about English spin training from a
winch launch at 800', but I thought it was either bar-talk
or a rogue instructor.

I know different areas use different training methods, but
from my U.S. centric perspective, "officially sanctioned
lunacy" seems like an awfully good description.

This was certainly true. On my instructor finishing course in 1977 with the
then British National Coach, (and you don't get much more "official" than that)
having joined downwind at about 800 ft, he took control and demonstrated a full
spin (about 1 rotation from memory) in a Bocian.

As far as I can remember this was to demonstrate the need to overcome a strong
natural instinct to pull the stick back when the grass fills the canopy and
take full recovery action.

It may not come as a total surprise to you to learn that I have never done it
since and, when Chief Flying Instructor of my club, had a rule that all spins
must be competed by 1500ft!

Barney
UK

The 2-32 has been actively sought after and purchased by the
glider ride industry. It's the only 3-seat option that lets
the ride-seller's customer share the experience with the
spouse or girlfriend/boyfriend. They aren't used much for
training anymore. And they are valuable enough that clubs
tend to sell them.

I do spin training in a 2-32 every year at Warner Springs. Good group of
guys/gals. Great glider to spin.