Landout Laws

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:403c579e$1@darkstar...
I don't accept unplanned outlandings as inevitable. Carl Herold has
avoided them for a long time, by using good judgement
and doing his homework.

It probably doesn't hurt to have a Nimbus 3DM, either...
-Bob

Bill Daniels wrote:

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:403bbce6$1@darkstar...

Stefan wrote:

303pilot wrote:


So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is

forced

to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is

unable to

connect to its source of power and is forced to land?

Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your plan

B.

I think of unplanned outlandings in the same way I think of
running out of gas in a power plane. If I had lousy fuel
gauges, and never checked the fuel levels before flight in
power planes, I'd probably only fly airplanes with excellent
glide ratios and that I could disassemble and trailer. ;(

I think whether an "outlanding" is an emergency has a lot more
to do with the pilot than the aircraft or type of activity.

For the multi-engine pilot examiners, who've landed dozens of
times with an engine that won't restart, single-engine landings
aren't emergencies, they're just "abnormal" procedures.

For our local examiner and our local 30,000 hr instructor,
who've had dozens of engine failures, this is just an "abnormal"
procedure. They always fly a profile that allows an assured
safe landing, given their experience and abilities, and
it's no coincidence that they haven't damaged an aircraft during
any of these engine failures.

For different glider pilots, I think different types of
"outlandings" may be an emergency or may be an "abnormal" procedure.

The first time I landed at an airstrip in a glider, and I hadn't
planned on landing there, it was an emergency. I didn't know
for sure if the glider would be damaged during the landing.
There were enough unknowns that I certainly was not completely
confident of an assured good outcome.

For me now, an "outlanding" at an airstrip, airport, or closed
airport I have scouted out and/or landed at before is an
"abnormal" procedure, if I hadn't planned to land there during
that flight.

Having scouted out a lot of strips (in a power plane) that looked
good from the air, and then gotten lower and said "no way I'd
ever land anything there," I'd consider landing a glider at
an unknown airstrip an emergency procedure (for me). I'd
also consider landing in a plowed field an emergency
procedure (for me). Really just because I haven't done it
before and am not completely confident and assured that
I can do it without damage. Reading and training is one thing,
doing it is another.

Carl Herold at
www.lvvsa.org/Training/LANDOUT-VER-2b.pdf
"Training: An off field landing is an unplanned emergency landing!"

If you look at his record, 2 of his first 10 X-C flights damaged
a glider during an off field landing. At 154 X-C flights, he damaged
a glider off field.

My conclusion from his record of "newbie" experience, plus my
own experiences and hangar talk, is that "newbie" glider pilots doing
early X-C should plan and execute cross-country flights so that
they land only at suitable airstrips (CH discusses this in
more detail). After a dozen+ experiences with crosswinds,
wondering if the wingspan is wider than the runway, vehicles
or other obstructions on the strip, and a few trailer and
aero-retrieves, I think a pilot then has a much better idea
what the risks and constraints are for a safe landing off field.
Will they then choose to accept that risk and
accept new landouts? Perhaps...

One seldom discussed option is to scout out the landouts in a
powered airplane. Some towplanes are insured for dual instruction
also. Take the glider pilot (or 3) along the route and land/low pass
at each airstrip and airport near home. For $100 split 3 ways,
this seems like a great preview of things to come.

61.93 requirements don't specify the X-C training for students
needs to be in a glider, so do it in a power plane instead.
More flexibility, can cover more airports in less time, and
it takes the mystery out of outlandings for newbie pilots
who've never landed anywhere but home. Then, if the CFIG
is really comfortable with the student, sign them off for
an X-C. Should you do a landing at an alien airstrip
dual first? Maybe. Results may vary...

Cross-country is fun. The SSA and others wonder why
newbies don't do it more. Simple. They've never done it
before so it's risky. We can either talk about it a lot
and wait for perfect conditions and do a lot of planning
and then struggle to fly dual and then pay for a tow
home, or:

we can just get in a dang airplane (or motorglider) and
do a "scouting" cross-country. It's worked for me...



Good post, Mark.

I have a simple XC rule. Never fly beyond safe gliding distance to a
known-safe landing site. That doesn't mean I don't go, it means I scout a
lot of landing sites from the ground. I walk them, measure them and note
the details in a little book. GPS makes this kind of expedition a lot
easier and more accurate.

There is a web site where this kind of information can be uploaded for all
to use. I plan to be sending them a lot of information and pictures. I
think everybody should. It is: http://www.airstripamerica.com/

Bill Daniels

Bill, I'm having a heck of a time searching for strips in Colorado. All
I get is a listing of the 1st 25 fields with Colorado in the name
including onse in AZ and TX. I can't switch it to show "100 matches",
it just defaults to 25. Typical search commands like "-TX" don't work
either. I sent them a comment to this effect. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Shawn

Jack wrote:

On 2/25/04 3:44 AM, in article , "Stefan"
wrote:


Why oh why do "the" Americans (apologies to those who don't) have such
high esteem for fighter pilots, killing and war? Isn't soaring about
peace and understanding nature? And how dare you to change the subject
line to "Zen" when you talk about war?


Just stay safely behind your mountains and contemplate the strangeness of us
cowboys, Stefan.

We Americans respect fighter pilots because they are expected to continually
strive for the very best that can be achieved in their realm of aviation --
and a very demanding, unforgiving way of life it is, too.

Yeah, Tailhook is a bitch ;-)

In article ,
Stefan wrote:
Mark James Boyd wrote:

But perhaps this is just semantics. The definition of
an "unplanned outlanding"

Maybe.

If "unplanned" means "it wasn't my intention when I started", then
unplanned outlandings are part of the game. Otherwise, you couldn't go
cross country by definition.

If however "unplanned" means "suddenly I realised that the lift was gone
and I hadn't a plan what to do now", then I agree with you. This is
unacceptable.

Stefan

Yes, yes, yes. Exactly. From reading your posts and agreeing with
them, I suspected we just needed to get to this little bit of
precision. Thanks for your patience here...

One resource that really has helped in recent years (at least around
here in the Western US) is a good database for potential landouts.
Carl Herold has done some great work in this area,
and between him and local avid soarers we have some remarkable
databases. For guys like me that prefer to aerotow out of a
narrow duster strip than trailer out of some random field,
these databases have really helped improve my alternatives and
allowed me to fly at lower altitudes (and therefore more days)
while still feeling I have safe options.

These databases also list a lot of reliable thermals
(elevators) pilots have found over the years.
Another excellent resource.

It's also been very easy for me to fly a power plane to each strip
to check it out. This has been extremely valuable. Only once have
I found a strip that I didn't feel safe landing, and instead I drove
there, measured and surveyed (with my little GPS), and then said
"boy I'm glad I didn't land there."

For example, a new landout called "Indian Valley" popped up recently
at http://www.soarhollister.com/images/...r500k_8_11.pdf
I haven't had a chance to scout it yet, but it is in a crucial location
where I've been limited from exploring before (due to lack
of confidence in a safe outcome). If it pans out,
it will allow me to explore a potential convergence/sea
breeze front on certain days.

Perhaps best of all, I now feel comfortable flying on perfectly
cloudless days. It's been amazing how many more soaring opportunities
I have had once I had a really firm grasp of landout options
and no longer needed marker clouds as a crutch. Flying on clear days
has certainly been more challenging, but so few pilots do it,
I get the towpilot and glider all to myself all day
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Bert Willing wrote:

Remember - good judgement comes
from experience, and experience comes from poor judgements :-)

This is true. However, I prefer to get good judgement from
the experience and poor judgement...OF OTHER PILOTS! :P

I don't feel the need to repeat Carl Herold's early
experiences damaging gliders to come up with his
conclusions. Because of my opposable thumbs and
mouse, I can simply read about the dangers he describes
and spend a bit more effort to avoid his mistakes.

I've also taken his comments about ridge soaring to
heart. Perhaps this limits my excitement or capabilities,
but that's the part of the risk-acceptance spectrum where
I fall...and I still don't find my soaring particularly
conservative.

I suppose for every pilot, what chances you are willing to
take is a very personal choice, and requires a lot
of self-evaluation. This is one of the best aspects of
soaring: it is an excellent mirror...

"Bert Willing" wrote in message ...
Sorry Mark, but Stefan is right.
Outlanding (in a field, not an airstrip) in soaring is not really planned,
but as it is part of the game it needs to be anticipated. The terrain below
you doesn't change that, it changes just the tactics of your
flight/decisions.
If you haven't been trained for it, you are not trained for x-country.
Outlandings happen because of poor judgement of yourself or of the frog
sitting at the meteo office - if they don't happen over a long time, you're
just not trying to get the max distance out of the day (which can be a
personal choice, nothing wrong with that). Remember - good judgement comes
from experience, and experience comes from poor judgements :-)
"Out"landing on an airfield is just another landing.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"

To use the power plane fuel analogy a bit differently:

When I go XC, I plan on having enough fuel (lift=altitude) to complete
my task, based on the forecast, etc. If I get low, or the forecast
was wrong, or I screw up, then I plan on using a known airfield (or
sometimes a really good known field) to landout on. This is the
equivalent of having to divert due to weather, unplanned winds, bad
fuel management - I land at a safe location before running out of
altitude (fuel); and I always aim for having a safe divert field in
ranges (just like you keep track on your divert fuel). If, however, I
really screw up and am forced to landout at an unknown field, then
that borders on a forced landing due to running out of gas (for
whatever reason). Sometimes, it may just be an annoyance (good fields
available); sometimes it can be a real emergency (tree or water
landing due to really stupid inflight decisions!).

Like all flying, preflight planning pays off. If you are not
knowledgable of enough good landout fields where you are planning to
fly, then you haven't done your preflight planning. There is
absolutely no excuse for blasting off into the unknown, hoping to find
a good place to land when you need it. If you want to do that, use a
paraglider!

Kirk

"Shawn Curry" wrote in message
news:2A4%b.56185$Xp.267376@attbi_s54...
Bill Daniels wrote:

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:403bbce6$1@darkstar...

Stefan wrote:

303pilot wrote:


So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is

forced

to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is

unable to

connect to its source of power and is forced to land?

Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your
plan

B.

I think of unplanned outlandings in the same way I think of
running out of gas in a power plane. If I had lousy fuel
gauges, and never checked the fuel levels before flight in
power planes, I'd probably only fly airplanes with excellent
glide ratios and that I could disassemble and trailer. ;(

I think whether an "outlanding" is an emergency has a lot more
to do with the pilot than the aircraft or type of activity.

For the multi-engine pilot examiners, who've landed dozens of
times with an engine that won't restart, single-engine landings
aren't emergencies, they're just "abnormal" procedures.

For our local examiner and our local 30,000 hr instructor,
who've had dozens of engine failures, this is just an "abnormal"
procedure. They always fly a profile that allows an assured
safe landing, given their experience and abilities, and
it's no coincidence that they haven't damaged an aircraft during
any of these engine failures.

For different glider pilots, I think different types of
"outlandings" may be an emergency or may be an "abnormal" procedure.

The first time I landed at an airstrip in a glider, and I hadn't
planned on landing there, it was an emergency. I didn't know
for sure if the glider would be damaged during the landing.
There were enough unknowns that I certainly was not completely
confident of an assured good outcome.

For me now, an "outlanding" at an airstrip, airport, or closed
airport I have scouted out and/or landed at before is an
"abnormal" procedure, if I hadn't planned to land there during
that flight.

Having scouted out a lot of strips (in a power plane) that looked
good from the air, and then gotten lower and said "no way I'd
ever land anything there," I'd consider landing a glider at
an unknown airstrip an emergency procedure (for me). I'd
also consider landing in a plowed field an emergency
procedure (for me). Really just because I haven't done it
before and am not completely confident and assured that
I can do it without damage. Reading and training is one thing,
doing it is another.

Carl Herold at
www.lvvsa.org/Training/LANDOUT-VER-2b.pdf
"Training: An off field landing is an unplanned emergency landing!"

If you look at his record, 2 of his first 10 X-C flights damaged
a glider during an off field landing. At 154 X-C flights, he damaged
a glider off field.

My conclusion from his record of "newbie" experience, plus my
own experiences and hangar talk, is that "newbie" glider pilots doing
early X-C should plan and execute cross-country flights so that
they land only at suitable airstrips (CH discusses this in
more detail). After a dozen+ experiences with crosswinds,
wondering if the wingspan is wider than the runway, vehicles
or other obstructions on the strip, and a few trailer and
aero-retrieves, I think a pilot then has a much better idea
what the risks and constraints are for a safe landing off field.
Will they then choose to accept that risk and
accept new landouts? Perhaps...

One seldom discussed option is to scout out the landouts in a
powered airplane. Some towplanes are insured for dual instruction
also. Take the glider pilot (or 3) along the route and land/low pass
at each airstrip and airport near home. For $100 split 3 ways,
this seems like a great preview of things to come.

61.93 requirements don't specify the X-C training for students
needs to be in a glider, so do it in a power plane instead.
More flexibility, can cover more airports in less time, and
it takes the mystery out of outlandings for newbie pilots
who've never landed anywhere but home. Then, if the CFIG
is really comfortable with the student, sign them off for
an X-C. Should you do a landing at an alien airstrip
dual first? Maybe. Results may vary...

Cross-country is fun. The SSA and others wonder why
newbies don't do it more. Simple. They've never done it
before so it's risky. We can either talk about it a lot
and wait for perfect conditions and do a lot of planning
and then struggle to fly dual and then pay for a tow
home, or:

we can just get in a dang airplane (or motorglider) and
do a "scouting" cross-country. It's worked for me...



Good post, Mark.

I have a simple XC rule. Never fly beyond safe gliding distance to a
known-safe landing site. That doesn't mean I don't go, it means I
scout a
lot of landing sites from the ground. I walk them, measure them and
note
the details in a little book. GPS makes this kind of expedition a lot
easier and more accurate.

There is a web site where this kind of information can be uploaded for
all
to use. I plan to be sending them a lot of information and pictures. I
think everybody should. It is: http://www.airstripamerica.com/

Bill Daniels

Bill, I'm having a heck of a time searching for strips in Colorado. All
I get is a listing of the 1st 25 fields with Colorado in the name
including onse in AZ and TX. I can't switch it to show "100 matches",
it just defaults to 25. Typical search commands like "-TX" don't work
either. I sent them a comment to this effect. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Shawn

Just enter the nearest city name. i.e. "Salida".

Shawn, are you going to scout some strips in Colorado? Not to duplicate
work, I'm starting in the San Luis Valley with a road trip in March, or as
soon as the snow melts on the back country strips. I need more landout
options on a line from Pagosa Springs to East Blanca Peak.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels

I have a simple XC rule. Never fly beyond safe gliding distance to a
known-safe landing site. That doesn't mean I don't go, it means I

scout a

lot of landing sites from the ground. I walk them, measure them and

note

the details in a little book. GPS makes this kind of expedition a lot
easier and more accurate.

There is a web site where this kind of information can be uploaded for

all

to use. I plan to be sending them a lot of information and pictures. I
think everybody should. It is: http://www.airstripamerica.com/

Bill Daniels


Bill, I'm having a heck of a time searching for strips in Colorado. All
I get is a listing of the 1st 25 fields with Colorado in the name
including onse in AZ and TX. I can't switch it to show "100 matches",
it just defaults to 25. Typical search commands like "-TX" don't work
either. I sent them a comment to this effect. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Shawn


Just enter the nearest city name. i.e. "Salida".

Shawn, are you going to scout some strips in Colorado? Not to duplicate
work, I'm starting in the San Luis Valley with a road trip in March, or as
soon as the snow melts on the back country strips. I need more landout
options on a line from Pagosa Springs to East Blanca Peak.

Bill Daniels

That's part of why I asked. I'm most curious of the area north of what
you mention, up to Taylor Park or so.
Stu has done some scouting. I'll forward this to him in case he's not
lurking.

Shawn

On 2/25/04 11:10 AM, in article UF4%b.120428$jk2.517554@attbi_s53, "Shawn
Curry" wrote:

...Tailhook is a bitch

Jealousy is unbecoming.


Jack
--------------------------------------------------
Freedom Isn't Free! See the Future in History:
bondage faith courage liberty abundance
complacency apathy dependence bondage.
--------------------------------------------------

Jack wrote:

On 2/25/04 11:10 AM, in article UF4%b.120428$jk2.517554@attbi_s53, "Shawn
Curry" wrote:


...Tailhook is a bitch


Jealousy is unbecoming.

'Scuse me? Slobbering drunk rapist? Never needed that to get laid thanks.