Cheap sailplanes

Someone wrote snip
wrote:
Ah, you really don't need to be X-C pilot to teach the fundamentals of
flight. In fact, so long as an instructor is dedicated to his art, that
is, teaching, he can take most students quite far without any X-C
experience of his own.

Is he a better instructor for having done it himself? Of course, and so
I would encourage him to expand his own horizons. But I wouldn't be too
hasty to disqualify him because he has little or no X-C experience...


I suppose you are an instructor for saying such crap. One of the reasons
why soaring is not going too well is the existence of instructors of
this sort. In my opinion an instructor who is not proficient in XC is
totally disqualified to teach soaring, because he doesn't know squat in
what is the essence of soaring. snip
- - - - - -

I'm sorry, but thanks to technology I was able to dredge up the following
from a thread 4 years ago. I haven't changed any relevant opinions since
writing it then... :-)

Regards,

Bob - not an instructor - W.
- - - - - -
snip

A Fractured Fairy Tale

Once upon a time, my instructor sold two 1/3 shares of the ship he built to
two of his recently erstwhile student pilots. Soon afterwards, one weekend
while practicing for a fun 3-day contest the next weekend at COSA (a far
distant gliderport in a far distant state), one of the tyros landed out in a
field, whereupon his partners retrieved him...and brought Our Hero the beer
themselves. (Lo! It was a strange day all around.)

The next weekend Our Hero drew the straw for day #1. He finished 4th in a
field of 12, and only several days behind the 3rd of the 4 finishers. He
judged his final glide so well that after crossing the finish line, he
stayed up to finish his 5 hours.

The next day the Wise Instructor drew the straw. He landed out hardly
halfway around the triangle, in a field too beautiful to describe.
Displaying nerves of steel, our Wise Instructor drove the crew car back to
the airport all by himself. Along the way he revealed that now, he too, had
his first landout under his belt. Our Hero experienced a hot flash. "Who
are YOU to be teaching me how to make off field landings when you hadn't
made one yourself?!?" he spake with ill-concealed heat, while feeling
vaguely shortchanged.

Wise Instructor turned toward the back seat with a twinkle in his eyes.
"What did you need to know last week that you didn't know?" was his
response.

Truly this was a puzzling question to Our Hero, who pondered the question
seriously for the rest of the return to the airport...and for many days
thereafter. Forsooth (for whom?), the answer was "Nothing," both then and
later, even after he continued to add to his landout knowledge firsthand.

Years later, Our Hero learned from rec.aviation.soaring that the 1-26 he
flew for several hundred hours and in which he made his first 4 landouts,
was incapable of cross country flight. This bemused him even more than his
instructor's question.

And he lived happily ever after.


Bob - who still believes in Santa Claus and 1-26's - Whelan


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wrote in message
oups.com...
Ah, you really don't need to be X-C pilot to teach the fundamentals of
flight. In fact, so long as an instructor is dedicated to his art, that
is, teaching, he can take most students quite far without any X-C
experience of his own.

Is he a better instructor for having done it himself? Of course, and so
I would encourage him to expand his own horizons. But I wouldn't be too
hasty to disqualify him because he has little or no X-C experience...

The next logical step would be to say that if you don't have at least
100 land outs, how can you really expect to teach someone else the
finer points of field selection and managing poor choices to a safe,
full stop?

Bella Karoli never did a full release move on the uneven bars, of that
I'm sure. But there were few who could exceed his mastery of the skill.
And his ability to communicate it effectively to others.


There's something about being 300 Km out over uninviting terrain that puts a
completely different perspective on the art of flying gliders. An
instructor with that experience teaches even the basics better than one
without it. He knows WHY you have to fly perfectly coordinated with perfect
airspeed control.

Bill Daniels

On the other hand, the guy with thousands of hours of local
twirlibirding will be much better at teaching you to get the glider
back on the ground before the other guys in the club get mad at you.

Bill Daniels wrote:


There's something about being 300 Km out over uninviting terrain that puts a
completely different perspective on the art of flying gliders. An
instructor with that experience teaches even the basics better than one
without it. He knows WHY you have to fly perfectly coordinated with perfect
airspeed control.

I'll have to disagree on this one: even though I am an instructor
(though not currently instructing) and a cross-country pilot, I don't
have any idea why perfect coordination or perfect airspeed control is
required. There are moments on some cross-country flights when good
coordination and speed control (but not anything like "perfect") are
essentials, but it's not the cross-country part that requires it: it's
the landing, and a good instructor can teach that without XC experience.

As I know it, cross-country flying is rarely about handling the glider,
but instead is mostly about judging the weather, observing likely lift
areas, and keeping a safe landing place in reach.

Sure, a good instructor with cross-country experience is more desirable
than a good instructor without it, but the most important part is very
much the "good instructor". Cross-country experience will not turn a
mediocre instructor into a good instructor. The experience might make it
easier for him to entice students into going cross-country, but I don't
think his students will as good at handling the glider than those of a
good instructor.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:


There's something about being 300 Km out over uninviting terrain that
puts a
completely different perspective on the art of flying gliders. An
instructor with that experience teaches even the basics better than one
without it. He knows WHY you have to fly perfectly coordinated with
perfect
airspeed control.

I'll have to disagree on this one: even though I am an instructor
(though not currently instructing) and a cross-country pilot, I don't
have any idea why perfect coordination or perfect airspeed control is
required.

It's because with that skill you can climb in a weak thermal a sloppy pilot
can't use. Sooner or later, that will make the difference in getting home.

In addition, every TE probe I have flown with is sensitive to even slight
yaw angles. If the glider is always yawing, the TE vario data isn't
reliable and centering a thermal will be harder.

Bill Daniels

Ah, you really don't need to be X-C pilot to teach the fundamentals of
flight. In fact, so long as an instructor is dedicated to his art, that
is, teaching, he can take most students quite far without any X-C
experience of his own.

Is he a better instructor for having done it himself? Of course, and so
I would encourage him to expand his own horizons. But I wouldn't be too
hasty to disqualify him because he has little or no X-C experience...

The next logical step would be to say that if you don't have at least
100 land outs, how can you really expect to teach someone else the
finer points of field selection and managing poor choices to a safe,
full stop?

Bella Karoli never did a full release move on the uneven bars, of that
I'm sure. But there were few who could exceed his mastery of the skill.
And his ability to communicate it effectively to others.



Don Johnstone wrote:
A very insular view. Please tell me that this person
is not a qualified instructor. Having someone who does
not even understand the rudiments of cross country
flying is a little scary, even if it is 5000 miles
away.
With this sort of attitude I am not surprised you cannot
find bin Laden.


At 14:00 15 December 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
If you ever read Phil Boyer's (AOPA guy) article about
the problem
with too much airplane traffic, he wrote:

'It's more runways, stupid.'

I laughed my ass off when I read that. So in the same
vein, I'll
say US soaring has plenty of gliders, plenty of instructors,
plenty
of tugs, plenty of gliderports...

What we need is more PILOTS!

I've noticed as we are slowly getting more pilots at
Avenal,
instructors are slowly emerging from the woodwork.
As I've
harped soaring, three of my friends have become towpilots
at
Hollister, and all have soloed or licensed. Two of
these
are eager to become SP glider instructors. Heck, the
FAA
glider guy in our area has become one of the more supportive
boosters in our area. One of my other friends with
a 182
is eying a schweizer towhook I bought.

So we are definitely ready for any huge influxes of
pilots.

But where are they?

Steve Hill wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote: Without enthusiastic instructors,
there is no sport of
soaring.

I guess my only two cents to that comment Bill...is
that I have yet to hear
of many clubs where 'soaring' is taught. Perhaps in
Europe, but not in the
U.S. Here is seems that CFIG's have their hands full
teaching people to
operate the basic training glider ie 2-33 or Blanik
to their version of
passing the Practical Test Standards. For virtually
anyone wanting to fly
sailplanes, it is far more time efficient to simply
become an ASEL private
pilot and then transition to gliders, than it is to
just pursue a Private
Glider license, I believe.

Depends. If you live 100 miles from a gliderport,
and count in the commute
time, this is perhaps true. If you live 20 miles from
a gliderport,
and you offer to pay the CFIG the same rate as you'd
pay the ASEL CFI,
you'll get a glider rating in a jiffy. Oh, and offer
to pay the FBO
the same hourly rate as you would for an airplane,
too. You'll see the
owner snap to attention. Free donuts even.

You certainly can schedule time much more easily and
there are far more
places to participate and get trained.

Absolutely. ASEL vs. glider instructors is 30:1.
And GA airports are
all around. 300 in calif. (I've been to 250). There
are about 30
gliderports.

And really ...honestly...without
meaning to offend all the CFIG's, don't you sorta think
we learn the art of
'soaring' by more of an osmosis type approach...??


Soaring, yes. Gliding, no. Soaring is heavily about
weather.
And learning soaring weather is like eating an elephant:
it looks
easy from a distance, but up close it gets messy, and
takes a long time.

I think we teach people
the basics, but in most clubs I think you'd be hard
to pressed to find an
instructor with a Gold Badge under his belt...

Hahaha...I've done a 300km flight. But on a predeclared
course with a
OO and a logger that worked? No way! C'mon, figuring
out how to
get a Gold badge should be a license in itself! Lots
of black magic
involved. Who was the instructor who had dozens of
300km flights
and then found a 1-34 lying around with a logger and
finally said
'What the heck?' The badge rules are utter spaghetti
crap.

or one who loves cross country
flying...I know there are places where those traits
are more common, but I'm
not sure if just having enthusiastic instructors is
enough...

First you get the money, then you get the power, THEN
you
get the weather Enthusiasm and skills are good,
fantastic weather
is better. You either live near it, or you travel
to it. Ahhhh...
travelling to it, there's a rub...

I've thought
for some time now, that for the sport to flourish in
any way, what we really
need is more of a two stepped teaching program. One
in which the basic PTS
is taught and tested to....and then more of an advanced
instructor for
taking people into cross country soaring and then into
racing if they so
desire...

True. I liked the Hollister Mad Dash idea. The longest
flight gets
a free retrieve. I think this (local) award really
pushed Hollister soaring
to an amazing level. It went from a pretty local flying
gig to coordinates
of known 'elevators', landout charts, graphics of flight
paths, some wave
off the back of peaks, the Panoche remote landout,
etc. It was like watching
a group chart out and conquer the North Pole. I mean
REALLY sophisticated
stuff, and a very lively and energetic bunch. Between
HGC for
license, and BASA for soaring, Hollister really turned
it up a notch.

This despite being 50%-80% more expensive than Avenal.
The difference?
20 miles from a huge million plus population vs. 100
miles away.

as it is, we basically teach ourselves and learn from
those above
us who are generous enough to act as mentors...Eric
Greenwell, Rudy Alleman,
Gary Boggs all those sort up here in Washington and
Oregon who patiently
answer all my dumb questions and encourage me to try...the
ones who share
their knowledge...that's what we need more of...

I'm astounded by how much study is rewarded in soaring.
It
really appeals to the engineering side of me. And
the librarians
are also often the authors. I'm trying to remember
how many links I've
been pointed to.

I always get a little existential about soaring, but
I think if it's going
to change, that Instructors have to become the Life
Blood of the
SPORT....

Broaden your mind, grasshopper. There's Instructors,
and then theres
instructors. FAA shmeffaaa. Many of my mentors didn't
have
no stinkin' license or badges...

not just the Practical Test Standards side of things...but
active
involved members of the sport of soaring. the Sport
of Cross Country Soaring
and the Sport of Sailplane Racing...

License, X-C, and racing are increasing capabilities.
But be real he
each requires a more demanding level of endurance.
And I mean not
only physically and mentally, but financially and with
free time.
It's not easy for the (non-retired) average pilot to
get the time
to go soaring. We all know how most soaring pilot
sick days get used...

I guess for the first time in a long while I better
suit up with the 'Flame
Suit' Mark Jame s Boyd always carries with him....but
still...it is a point
worth discussing.

Hahaha...I just paint my body with asbestos and let
'er rip! I love
stirring a little poopoo once in a while to get the
guys in the group to
set out some stronger opinions. Am I a troll? Perhaps...
Even Lennie (God bless him) is important,
because he's just like one of the guys at YOUR gliderport
(you know who).

Be Gentle...it's my first negative comment.

More pilots. Period.

As Dr. Fankenstein said: 'Raw materials. I need MORE
raw materials!!!'

--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

I apologise, I was in a hurry. My comment about hoping
the writer was not an instructor was meant for Mark.
I have no problem with the view he holds concerning
badges and cross country, but to assume that eveyone
else should have the same view is why we don't attract
people. In my experience people aspire to much more,
cross country and the attaining of badges is important
to them and we have to give them that if we are to
attract people. Of course there are those who don't
want badges and who just want to local soar or circuit
bash and we also have to cater for them. One of the
worst things we can do is assume that others want what
we want. It was that assumtion that I took exception
to. If Mark was an instructor how would his students
feel?

As for teaching cross country you do need the experience
of having done it. To get an instructor rating in the
UK you must have at least a Silver Badge. I had a thousand
hours of teaching students to fly the circuit and local
soar (military category) but it was not until I left
that 6 years ago that I was able to learn and teach
the finer points of cross country. I gave up instructing
because I have lost the most important and essential
attribute that an instructor needs, enthusiasm. Who
wants to be taught by someone who cannot enthuse about
gliding. How long would a person stay.

I am aware the conditions in the USA are totally different
from over here. My original post was based on the problems
we are experiencing in the UK.

At 23:30 15 December 2004,
wrote:
Ah, you really don't need to be X-C pilot to teach
the fundamentals of
flight. In fact, so long as an instructor is dedicated
to his art, that
is, teaching, he can take most students quite far without
any X-C
experience of his own.

Is he a better instructor for having done it himself?
Of course, and so
I would encourage him to expand his own horizons. But
I wouldn't be too
hasty to disqualify him because he has little or no
X-C experience...

The next logical step would be to say that if you don't
have at least
100 land outs, how can you really expect to teach someone
else the
finer points of field selection and managing poor choices
to a safe,
full stop?

Bella Karoli never did a full release move on the uneven
bars, of that
I'm sure. But there were few who could exceed his mastery
of the skill.
And his ability to communicate it effectively to others.



Don Johnstone wrote:
A very insular view. Please tell me that this person
is not a qualified instructor. Having someone who
does
not even understand the rudiments of cross country
flying is a little scary, even if it is 5000 miles
away.
With this sort of attitude I am not surprised you
cannot
find bin Laden.


At 14:00 15 December 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
If you ever read Phil Boyer's (AOPA guy) article about
the problem
with too much airplane traffic, he wrote:

'It's more runways, stupid.'

I laughed my ass off when I read that. So in the
same
vein, I'll
say US soaring has plenty of gliders, plenty of instructors,
plenty
of tugs, plenty of gliderports...

What we need is more PILOTS!

I've noticed as we are slowly getting more pilots
at
Avenal,
instructors are slowly emerging from the woodwork.
As I've
harped soaring, three of my friends have become towpilots
at
Hollister, and all have soloed or licensed. Two of
these
are eager to become SP glider instructors. Heck,
the
FAA
glider guy in our area has become one of the more
supportive
boosters in our area. One of my other friends with
a 182
is eying a schweizer towhook I bought.

So we are definitely ready for any huge influxes of
pilots.

But where are they?

Steve Hill wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote: Without enthusiastic instructors,
there is no sport of
soaring.

I guess my only two cents to that comment Bill...is
that I have yet to hear
of many clubs where 'soaring' is taught. Perhaps in
Europe, but not in the
U.S. Here is seems that CFIG's have their hands full
teaching people to
operate the basic training glider ie 2-33 or Blanik
to their version of
passing the Practical Test Standards. For virtually
anyone wanting to fly
sailplanes, it is far more time efficient to simply
become an ASEL private
pilot and then transition to gliders, than it is to
just pursue a Private
Glider license, I believe.

Depends. If you live 100 miles from a gliderport,
and count in the commute
time, this is perhaps true. If you live 20 miles
from
a gliderport,
and you offer to pay the CFIG the same rate as you'd
pay the ASEL CFI,
you'll get a glider rating in a jiffy. Oh, and offer
to pay the FBO
the same hourly rate as you would for an airplane,
too. You'll see the
owner snap to attention. Free donuts even.

You certainly can schedule time much more easily and
there are far more
places to participate and get trained.

Absolutely. ASEL vs. glider instructors is 30:1.
And GA airports are
all around. 300 in calif. (I've been to 250). There
are about 30
gliderports.

And really ...honestly...without
meaning to offend all the CFIG's, don't you sorta
think
we learn the art of
'soaring' by more of an osmosis type approach...??


Soaring, yes. Gliding, no. Soaring is heavily about
weather.
And learning soaring weather is like eating an elephant:
it looks
easy from a distance, but up close it gets messy,
and
takes a long time.

I think we teach people
the basics, but in most clubs I think you'd be hard
to pressed to find an
instructor with a Gold Badge under his belt...

Hahaha...I've done a 300km flight. But on a predeclared
course with a
OO and a logger that worked? No way! C'mon, figuring
out how to
get a Gold badge should be a license in itself! Lots
of black magic
involved. Who was the instructor who had dozens of
300km flights
and then found a 1-34 lying around with a logger and
finally said
'What the heck?' The badge rules are utter spaghetti
crap.

or one who loves cross country
flying...I know there are places where those traits
are more common, but I'm
not sure if just having enthusiastic instructors is
enough...

First you get the money, then you get the power, THEN
you
get the weather Enthusiasm and skills are good,
fantastic weather
is better. You either live near it, or you travel
to it. Ahhhh...
travelling to it, there's a rub...

I've thought
for some time now, that for the sport to flourish
in
any way, what we really
need is more of a two stepped teaching program. One
in which the basic PTS
is taught and tested to....and then more of an advanced
instructor for
taking people into cross country soaring and then
into
racing if they so
desire...

True. I liked the Hollister Mad Dash idea. The longest
flight gets
a free retrieve. I think this (local) award really
pushed Hollister soaring
to an amazing level. It went from a pretty local
flying
gig to coordinates
of known 'elevators', landout charts, graphics of
flight
paths, some wave
off the back of peaks, the Panoche remote landout,
etc. It was like watching
a group chart out and conquer the North Pole. I mean
REALLY sophisticated
stuff, and a very lively and energetic bunch. Between
HGC for
license, and BASA for soaring, Hollister really turned
it up a notch.

This despite being 50%-80% more expensive than Avenal.
The difference?
20 miles from a huge million plus population vs. 100
miles away.

as it is, we basically teach ourselves and learn from
those above
us who are generous enough to act as mentors...Eric
Greenwell, Rudy Alleman,
Gary Boggs all those sort up here in Washington and
Oregon who patiently
answer all my dumb questions and encourage me to try...the
ones who share
their knowledge...that's what we need more of...

I'm astounded by how much study is rewarded in soaring.
It
really appeals to the engineering side of me. And
the librarians
are also often the authors. I'm trying to remember
how many links I've
been pointed to.

I always get a little existential about soaring, but
I think if it's going
to change, that Instructors have to become the Life
Blood of the
SPORT....

Broaden your mind, grasshopper. There's Instructors,
and then theres
instructors. FAA shmeffaaa. Many of my mentors didn't
have
no stinkin' license or badges...

not just the Practical Test Standards side of things...but
active
involved members of the sport of soaring. the Sport
of Cross Country Soaring
and the Sport of Sailplane Racing...

License, X-C, and racing are increasing capabilities.
But be real he
each requires a more demanding level of endurance.
And I mean not
only physically and mentally, but financially and
with
free time.
It's not easy for the (non-retired) average pilot
to
get the time
to go soaring. We all know how most soaring pilot
sick days get used...

I guess for the first time in a long while I better
suit up with the 'Flame
Suit' Mark Jame s Boyd always carries with him....but
still...it is a point
worth discussing.

Hahaha...I just paint my body with asbestos and let
'er rip! I love
stirring a little poopoo once in a while to get the
guys in the group to
set out some stronger opinions. Am I a troll? Perhaps...
Even Lennie (God bless him) is important,
because he's just like one of the guys at YOUR gliderport
(you know who).

Be Gentle...it's my first negative comment.

More pilots. Period.

As Dr. Fankenstein said: 'Raw materials. I need
MORE
raw materials!!!'

--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

At 00:00 16 December 2004, Michel Talon wrote:
wrote:
Ah, you really don't need to be X-C pilot to teach
the fundamentals of
flight. In fact, so long as an instructor is dedicated
to his art, that
is, teaching, he can take most students quite far
without any X-C
experience of his own.

Is he a better instructor for having done it himself?
Of course, and so
I would encourage him to expand his own horizons.
But I wouldn't be too
hasty to disqualify him because he has little or no
X-C experience...


I suppose you are an instructor for saying such crap.
One of the reasons
why soaring is not going too well is the existence
of instructors of
this sort. In my opinion an instructor who is not proficient
in XC is
totally disqualified to teach soaring, because he doesn't
know squat in
what is the essence of soaring. I had the chance of
getting some
lessons with an instructor who was both young and dedicated
to XC, this
changed everything in my perception of the sport and
i understood i had
completely lost my time with the other guys.

Michel TALON


But your own experience does not qualify you to make
such a broad generalization. Perhaps you did not get
to the new instructor early enough.

Beginning piano students do not need a teacher from
Juilliard or the French Conservatory. If the teacher
is good and enthusiastic the student will learn the
fundamentals and enjoy the experience. A good teacher
will release a student to learn what the teacher cannot
teach and will suggest further training elsewhere.

The beginner in school does not need a calculus professor
to teach basic arithmetic.

I do agree that the initial instructor must have enthusiasm
for the work and must teach a wider vision than just
the maneuvers being taught.

Your experience may well have been unfortunate but
it does not represent everyone's experience.

We would do well in the USA to have a two-tier instructor
level, but all of aviation is organized differently
here. SSA is attempting to increase the number of
'Master Instructors' who can teach XC flying and it
is very much needed.

Lets not insult all the instructors who are teaching
basic flying techniques. The earliest teaching is
the most significant for attitude and for safe flying.