Silly controller

Newps writes:
This phraseology is exactly the same instruction that you would be
given near the end your flight on an IFR flight plan.

No it's not. You will never hear "Cleared to the Foobar airport"
as part of your approach clearance.

I agree that was written sloppily. In the one case, you get the
"cleared to" the airport earlier in the flight and the "cleared for
the approach" afterwards. In the othe case, you usually get directed
to some IAP or just radar vectored to the approach course followed by
"cleared for the approach". In the example that the Boston TRACON
supervisor commented on, what I said to him was the "cleared for..."
version. He said that this absent the "Maintain VFR" phrase, this
constituted a clearance limit for the purpose of IFR lost comm
procedures (which I hadn't asked about).

You could argue that he is wrong, of course.

In article ,
Jose wrote:

...usually
regardless of whether I'm on a practice approach, pop-up, or pre-filed
IFR flight plan. There's no clearance limit there...

If you are on an IFR flight plan, you already have a clearance limit.
It was given to you when you got your clearance. "CLEARED TO FooBar
International via..." That doesn't get invalidated by an approach
clearance. If you are VFR, the approach clearance doesn't give you a
clearance limit, and thus does not make you IFR.

Indeed -- that's what we've been trying to tell the Other Guy (the
"there" up there referred to there being no clearance limit given in the
instructions you snipped).

Hamish

In article ,
Jose wrote:

went back to NorCal and cancelled IFR, [...]
When I reported back on the [practice] missed at Tracy
and requested flight following back to Hayward (KHWD)
I was asked to cancel IFR.

Maybe they didn't receive your original cancellation. Either NorCal
didn't really cancel, or they didn't transmit the cancellation properly
(would Tracy have advance strips on you?)

"Tracy", being an uncontrolled airport in NorCal's area, wouldn't have
any strips at all :-). I was on the same NorCal approach frequency the
entire time from before I cancelled IFR to when I got the instructions
to report cancelling IFR some 40 or more minutes later....

Hamish

Christopher C. Stacy wrote:
"Steven P. McNicoll" writes:

"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
...

When he gave you the clearance for the approach, did he say
"Maintain VFR?" If not, you were really IFR.


No. You're really IFR when you hear "Cleared to..."

Like in, "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until established" ?

My interpretation of the ATC handbook is that there are three types of
practice approaches:

1) You can be IFR, in which case it works just like any other IFR
operation except that practice approaches are lower priority (you can
be delayed). This comes with a proper IFR clearance (with a clearance
limit) as has been stated in this thread.

2) You can be VFR, but with separation services. Here you get 500 ft
vertical separation from other traffic and standard lateral separation.
The published miss is not authorized unless the controller
specifically approves it, and if he does approve it, separation
services are provided for the missed approach procedure as well. This
comes with the instruction "CLEARED FOR THE APPROACH" or similar.

3) You can be VFR, but without separation services. The missed
approach is again not authorized. This comes with the instruction
"PRACTICE APPROACH APPROVED" or similar.

If you're operating under VFR, the controller is supposed to remind you
by saying "MAINTAIN VFR" at some point, but if the controller forgets,
it doesn't change anything.

If separation services are provided, then the controller must be
informed when to terminate those services. Could this be when the
confusion occurs? What is the terminology for terminating VFR
separation services? I've assumed that many controllers use standard
IFR cancellation terminology for that even when the airplane is
operated under VFR.

Peter

My instructor always corrected the controllers when they made a mistake. If
they got snotty he would call them.
"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:bpKHg.15$c07.14@fed1read04...
Brad wrote:

Robert M. Gary wrote:


At least it's better than the controller who told my instrument student
as we approached the FAF, (we were on an IFR flight plan) "IFR
canceled, squawk VFR, frequency change approved." even though we hadn't
canceled. It was VMC, so operationally it wasn't a big deal for us,
but I learned from TRACON's QC person that the controller was a trainee
and the instructing controller missed it.


I've had that happen a couple times over the years. My stock reply was "I
am inside a cloud, unable VFR."

"Tracy", being an uncontrolled airport in NorCal's area, wouldn't have
any strips at all :-)

Just because it's uncontrolled doesn't mean they don't have strips. In
fact, there's an entire thread about a destination in NY with its own
strips. I think that's way out of control.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

writes:
Christopher C. Stacy wrote:
"Steven P. McNicoll" writes:

"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
...

When he gave you the clearance for the approach, did he say
"Maintain VFR?" If not, you were really IFR.


No. You're really IFR when you hear "Cleared to..."

Like in, "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until established" ?

My interpretation of the ATC handbook is that there are
three types of practice approaches:

1) You can be IFR, in which case it works just like any other IFR
operation except that practice approaches are lower priority (you
can be delayed). This comes with a proper IFR clearance (with a
clearance limit) as has been stated in this thread.

Yes.

2) You can be VFR, but with separation services. Here you get 500 ft
vertical separation from other traffic and standard lateral separation.
The published miss is not authorized unless the controller
specifically approves it, and if he does approve it, separation
services are provided for the missed approach procedure as well.
This comes with the instruction "CLEARED FOR THE APPROACH" or similar.

Yes.

3) You can be VFR, but without separation services. The missed
approach is again not authorized. This comes with the instruction
"PRACTICE APPROACH APPROVED" or similar.

"MAINTAIN VFR, PRACTICE APPROACH APPROVED, NO SEPARATION SERVICES PROVIDED."

If you're operating under VFR, the controller is supposed to remind you
by saying "MAINTAIN VFR" at some point, but if the controller forgets,
it doesn't change anything.

It presumably reflects whether the controller believes whether you are now IFR.

The last time I asked an operational supervisor at the FAA (Boston),
which was yesterday, he said that in this (VFR) case the lack of the
phrase "MAINTAIN VFR" indicates they believe you are accepting an IFR
clearance with the airport as the clearance limit (unless you were
previously on an IFR clearance as you describe above). I specifically
asked him if there was a clearance limit, and what it would be.
He also went on to tell me about what he expected the lost communications
procedures would be. This was without having said "CLEARED TO airport".
That is the point of contention.

My point is just that the controller may have made a mistake and issued
a wrong clearance, and that the pilot should clarify what he wanted.

Christopher C. Stacy wrote:


You could argue that he is wrong, of course.

There's no question he's wrong.

"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
...
The last time I asked an operational supervisor at the FAA (Boston),
which was yesterday, he said that in this (VFR) case the lack of the
phrase "MAINTAIN VFR" indicates they believe you are accepting an IFR
clearance with the airport as the clearance limit (unless you were
previously on an IFR clearance as you describe above). I specifically
asked him if there was a clearance limit, and what it would be.
He also went on to tell me about what he expected the lost communications
procedures would be. This was without having said "CLEARED TO airport".
That is the point of contention.

Would this be a supervisor who's operational and procedural knowledge is on
a par with the one I dealt with at Miami TRACON in the mid-90s?

The one who told me they didn't use permanent echoes to align/check the
accuracy of their video maps even though a check of their own facility SOPs
clearly stated they did and even had photos of the indicator showing where
the PEs were.

Sometimes FAA supervisors are where they are to get them out of where they
were :-/

You're not on an IFR clearance until you're "Cleared to XXX, via YYY,
maintain ZZZ"

An approach clearance IS NOT an IFR clearance; with or without the phrase
"Maintain VFR."

has it correct.

wrote:


If separation services are provided, then the controller must be
informed when to terminate those services. Could this be when the
confusion occurs? What is the terminology for terminating VFR
separation services?


Separation services must be given until the pilot reports completion of
the approach(uncontrolled field) or lands/goes missed(tower). I can
cancel your approach clearance but better have a damn good reason.