#1 Piston Fighter was British

ArtKramr wrote: (among other stuff)

We had to hold airspeed to zero tolerence to get bombing accuracy.

Arthur Kramer


"zero tolerance" Now I'm really impressed!

Dave

In article ,
(The Revolution Will Not Be Televised) writes:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:22:31 -0400, (Peter
Stickney) wrote:

Gavin,
I don't wish to sound argumentative, but wouldn't it be more fair to
say that the Packard Merlins i Lancaster B.IIIs and various flavors
of Mosquito were more significant.

Not really, look at the numbers supplied over time in 1942-43. More
Packard Merlins were going into Hurricane Xs for delivery to the
Russians than into Kittyhawks or Mosquitos. The Packard Merlins for
the Lanc III were certainly significant, as any holdups in supply
affected expansion of Lancaster production in 1943, and this generated
concern at high levels of the MAP (unlike almost anything to do with
the Mosquito) which indicates the importance attached to PM supply as
part of the heavy-bomber programme.

Ah. O.K. That makes sense. Did most of the Murricane X's go to the
Soviets? I suppose it makes sense. Were thay delivered via Alaska?

I'm not trying to cut down the
Kittyhawk IIs again, but I think that everybody except, perhaps
those in the CBI Theater had pretty much decided by 1943 that P-40
based airframes weren't the best option available.

Sure. I don't disagree with that, but they still had to fight with
what they got, not what they wanted. As it happens the Merlin
Kittyhawks provided the majority of the US fighter strength in the MTO
in 1942-1943 during the first Allied offensive operations to clear
North Africa and attack Italy. That's not insubstantial, although the
picture changes rapidly over time as other types appeared in greater
quantity and replaced the P-40F/L on the front line.

I agree that there were a lot of P-40s in service in early '43. But
after that point, with Mustangs and Thunderbolts making their
appearancce, that that's what would be coming into the pipeline.
Of course, it took time.

As a point of
information, how long did teh Kittyhawk IIs stay in service? There
seemed to ba a rapid turnover of fighter types in North Africa in
'42 and '43, and I've seen information that indicates that the
Kittyhawk IIs in the RAAF Squadrons that wwere in North Africa were
replaces with Kittyhawk IIIs (P-40Ks and Ms) in relatively short
order. Could you please shed some light on this?

My information (which is limited on post-May 1943) is that the British
got one sizeable batch of P-40Fs which equipped 260 Squadron in the
DAF September/October 1942. These, plus some later arrivals, then
went on to equip 3 RAAF squadron and 260 Squadron had replaced it with
Kittyhawk IIIs by the spring of 1943 (some aircraft served in both
squadrons). 3 RAAF retained them into the summer of 1943 throughout
Sicily and the invasion of southern Italy. That's a reasonable
service life for aircraft which had been received nearly a year
earlier. The shortage of numbers, and the fact that they didn't get
any more supplied in quantity after November 1942 (as production
finished) meant that it was a minor type.

That makes sense. The life of a WW 2 fighter in combat was rather
short. There was a heavy toll not only to enemy action, but there was
also the steady drumbeat of operational losses, and they'd ger well &
truly worn out from being run hard. I'd imagine that what was
happening was that 3 Sqn. RAAF was brought up to strength with what
was left over from 260 Sqn, as the numbers of both were cut down by
attrition.

This seems equivalent to the service life of other variants of the
P-40 in RAF service, e.g. the Tomahawks in 112 Squadron which lasted
six months before replacement (July 1941 - January 1942), or the
Kittyhawks of 94 Squadron lasting six months before replacement
(January 1942 - May 1942).

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
Date: 7/1/03 10:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 01 Jul 2003 15:59:19 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Are you sure you won't reconsider killfiling me?
Please.

Put your money where your mouth is. You claim to want to killfile me:
do so.

If you want to discuss something, talk about the "impotence" of my
relatives who were fighting the war long before you arrived on the
scene. Eight times to Berlin.

How many times did you do that?

Gavin Bailey


Now you are taking credit for what your relatires did? disgusting.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: Cub Driver
Date: 7/1/03 1:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: h7r3gvo39q07n9klatqtrpfer69sp

about the
carnage at Omaha, and he'd melded it into his own memory. That's the
problem with eyewitness testimony--it sometimes is actually a memory
of a photograph you've seen or a thought you later had.

How does that effect books written from memory that everyone is now quoting.
(grin)


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: "Paul J. Adam"
Date: 7/1/03 1:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Art, you and Gavin both have valuable information to share, acquired in
very different ways. I know you won't kiss and make up, but can you try
to find a way to live with your argument? I value both sources and would
hate to lose one or both.

Thanks for the kind words. Years ago when this NG was young it was filled with
WW II veterans of the air war over Germany. At least 2 B-17 pilots, one from
the Bloody 100th Bomb Group with incredible stories to tell. Some navigators
who had been to Ploesti in B-24's and a number of gunners from both B-24's and
B-17's. These men in relating their combat experiences were constantly and
uniforrmly attacked by a hords of wannabbees, many who had never even seen a
military aircarft much less flown in one. They were discounting what these
veterans relayed because they read somewhere that it was otherwise and they
were telling these veterans what war was "really like'. One by one the vets
left this NG in disgust.. I kept in contact with many of them and tried to
bring them back.One or two came back, but left when the wannebees struck again
time after time. But I am a different breed of altogether.. I will never be
dirven off by wannabees. Never in a million years. Many guys who have given me
the same crap over and over are now gone.I'm still here. And will be as long as
I can make it to the computer keyboard. The Luftwaffe couldn't get me. And the
wannabees don't stand a chance..

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: av8r
Date: 7/1/03 2:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Hi ya Art!

The 344th BG was the first group to attack Utah Beach. They bombed a
number of German coastal artillery sites. The next group over Utah
Beach was the 387th BG. Due to cloud cover, all bombing was carried out
below the cloud base. As I indicated in my previous e-mail, the cloud
base ranged from 1,650 ASL to 3,000 feet ASL. The 366th BG was the last
to drop its ordnance, just a mere five minutes before the initial
landings took place. They carpet bombed the area using 100 pound bombs
that tore up the barbed wire and explode buried land mines, both
anti-tank and anti-personnel. A beneficial side effect was that bombs
created instant fox holes. They were deep enough for the assaulting
ground forces to use yet not deep enough to hinder either the armored
nor landing vehicles.

Cheers...Chris


You said the magic words that make my blood run cold...100 pounders. (sheesh)We
carried 40 hundred pounders. 40 of the little *******s. Do you know how long
it takes to kick out 40 bombs by intervalometer flying straight and level with
your bomb bay doors open , low enough to take small arms fire?. A lifetime,
that's how long. Talk about time standing still. We used that same damned load
hitting the marshalling yards at Cologne, coming home full of small arms fire;
holes and dents. But those little *******s sure made short work of barbed wire
and railroad tracks and ties.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: Dave Holford
Date: 7/1/03 5:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:



ArtKramr wrote:


I never read any books on the subject.


It shows.

I was there. I looked for you but didn't see you, where were you? Read a
thousand books. You still won' t have the feeling of what it was all
about..

Arthur Kramer


Then I guess there is no point reading your writing.

Dave


Exactly my point. it is not for the faint of heart.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

Snippage

| dirven off by wannabees. Never in a million years. Many guys who have
given me
| the same crap over and over are now gone.I'm still here. And will be as
long as
| I can make it to the computer keyboard. The Luftwaffe couldn't get me. And
the
| wannabees don't stand a chance..
|
| Arthur Kramer
| Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
| http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer



Hi Art and all,


As someone who appreciates all _constructive_ input, I've enjoyed most of
the messages in this thread......certainly the ones that generate light
instead of heat. Normally threads this long would have left me cold
ages ago.


The thread touches peripherally on all aspects of Usenet life, from the
freedom of speech that your constitution stipulates and that _most_ other
RAM members enjoy by default, to the simple aspects of netiquette and good
manners.


Personally, I wonder if any other generation would ever stand toe-to-toe in
a bleeding match like WWI or II as yours did. We've all become
accustomed to 'surgical' warfare with minimal casualties among our side or
the innocent bystanders, witness the protests about the civilian casualties
in OIF.


You've certainly earned the right to be heard and to exchange your opinions
with the others with a credibility that few others can match.
Sadly, there will be a day when first hand accounts are no longer available
and written histories are all that are left.

The imperative as I see it, is to
_reconcile_written_histories_with_first-hand_accounts - while we can.
The work of authors such as Ed and Gordon are aimed at their own specialist
areas of air warfare during the last 60 years.


I'm glad you're still here Art, dodging the grenades. I'm sure that in
person you're a crusty, irascible old fart - enjoy that while you can - we
do and that there are people online who will enjoy stirring you up.

Please bear in mind that people on various mountain tops can look into the
same valley and see things slightly differently.



Cheers


Dave Kearton

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: "Dave Kearton"
Date: 7/1/03 8:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Snippage

| dirven off by wannabees. Never in a million years. Many guys who have
given me
| the same crap over and over are now gone.I'm still here. And will be as
long as
| I can make it to the computer keyboard. The Luftwaffe couldn't get me. And
the
| wannabees don't stand a chance..
|
| Arthur Kramer
| Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
| http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer



Hi Art and all,


As someone who appreciates all _constructive_ input, I've enjoyed most of
the messages in this thread......certainly the ones that generate light
instead of heat. Normally threads this long would have left me cold
ages ago.


The thread touches peripherally on all aspects of Usenet life, from the
freedom of speech that your constitution stipulates and that _most_ other
RAM members enjoy by default, to the simple aspects of netiquette and good
manners.


Personally, I wonder if any other generation would ever stand toe-to-toe in
a bleeding match like WWI or II as yours did. We've all become
accustomed to 'surgical' warfare with minimal casualties among our side or
the innocent bystanders, witness the protests about the civilian casualties
in OIF.


You've certainly earned the right to be heard and to exchange your opinions
with the others with a credibility that few others can match.
Sadly, there will be a day when first hand accounts are no longer available
and written histories are all that are left.

The imperative as I see it, is to
_reconcile_written_histories_with_first-hand_accounts - while we can.
The work of authors such as Ed and Gordon are aimed at their own specialist
areas of air warfare during the last 60 years.


I'm glad you're still here Art, dodging the grenades. I'm sure that in
person you're a crusty, irascible old fart - enjoy that while you can - we
do and that there are people online who will enjoy stirring you up.

Please bear in mind that people on various mountain tops can look into the
same valley and see things slightly differently.



Cheers


Dave Kearton



Actually I am a rather mild mannered university (UNLV) student of the
humanities and constitutional law. I have been for the last 7 years and will
continue as long as I have the strength to get to class and understand what is
being said. Oh, this coming semester I will be adding Chaucer in middle English
to the schedule. And about that valley you were talking about.I look down into
and what I see is damned well what is there and don't you forget it. Of course
there is another other breed of men who won't look down into the valley at all.
They would rather read books about it.(grin)

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
| Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
| From: "Dave Kearton"
| Date: 7/1/03 8:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time
| Message-id:
|
| Snippage
|

| to the schedule. And about that valley you were talking about.I look down
into
| and what I see is damned well what is there and don't you forget it. Of
course
| there is another other breed of men who won't look down into the valley at
all.
| They would rather read books about it.(grin)
|
| Arthur Kramer
|


Art, I was working all afternoon on that metaphor and you mangled it in one
paragraph. It's like the cake in McArthur park.


Never mind, we both made our point.




Cheers


Dave Kearton