French block airlift of British troops to Basra

"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" wrote in message
...
Keith Willshaw wrote:



At no point did I defend either Stalin or the Soviets

That's how I interpreted your sentiments in writing
" I doubt that the handful of British citizens in German
uniform were too happy to be sent home either, their
leader was hanged and they all received lengthy prison
sentences." since I am sure that you knew the historical
facts of what went on.


Your interpretation was in error, I was pointing out
that not only Soviets in German uniform were treated
harshly after the war but that soldiers of other nationalities
go short shrift too.

Stalin was a grade 'A' psycho running a corrupt vicious
regime but that said no country in history was ever going
to let people off with a caution when they had joined an enemy
in attacking them, especially when that enemy was intent on genocide.

Even in Denmark, as pacific and easy going a nation as you
will ever find, Danish citizens who had joined the Waffen SS
were tried and many executed after the war. The last of
the surviving prisoners of Danmark Freikorp were released in the 1950's

The treatment of returning Soviet POW's on the other
hand was truly barbaric and unprecedented.


1) Stalin demanded the repatriation of the thousands of
soviet subjects in German prison camps. These were NOT
persons who had put on the German uniform. Many of them
did not want to be shipped back to Stalins' tender mercy.


Re-read the message to which I replied, it specifies
Soviet Citizens in German unforms

"at war's end, thousands of Russians in German
prison camps ..." certainly does not!


2) There were a handful of British citizens in German uniform
versus thousands of soviet subjects who chose to serve with
the Germans against the soviet Russian regime.

Quite so

And you chose to disregard the implications as regards the
moral stand of the individuals in both groups.

Not at all, I can quite see why some Ukranians and others initially
welcomed the Germans as liberators in 1941 BUT those
captured in 1945 must have been well aware of the nature
of the Nazi regime by the wars end and its a simple fact of life
that joining the enemy during wartime attracts retribution if they
lose. It always has and always will, as we can see in the case of
those US, UK and Australians captured in Afghanistan and
Iraq who are currently in detention. Treason is never treated
lightly.

Keith

"William Black" wrote in message
...

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

I doubt that the handful of British citizens in German
uniform were too happy to be sent home either, their
leader was hanged and they all received lengthy prison
sentences.

I don't think Joyce was their leader, and I seem to remember reading that
at least one other was shot...


Joyce played no part in the affair beyond his propaganda broadcasts,
their leader was John Amery son of Leo Amery a minister in Churchill's
wartime government.

And we're talking about British servicemen joining the SS here, not
Germans
going home to fight...


And the Soviets were are discussing were those who had
joined the German armed forces too.

Keith

Keith Willshaw wrote:


Even in Denmark, as pacific and easy going a nation as you
will ever find, Danish citizens who had joined the Waffen SS
were tried and many executed after the war. The last of
the surviving prisoners of Danmark Freikorp were released in the 1950's

I believe this is incorrect. The Freikorp was formed with the
permission of the wartime danish government. The law which the
volunteers were tried under was a postwar creation. The average sentence
was 2 years

http://www.dchf.dk/publications_dk/d...oulsen_mfl.pdf


vince

"Vince Brannigan" wrote in message
...


Keith Willshaw wrote:


Even in Denmark, as pacific and easy going a nation as you
will ever find, Danish citizens who had joined the Waffen SS
were tried and many executed after the war. The last of
the surviving prisoners of Danmark Freikorp were released in the 1950's

I believe this is incorrect. The Freikorp was formed with the
permission of the wartime danish government.

The permission of a Nazi puppet regime is scarcely an excuse.


The law which the
volunteers were tried under was a postwar creation. The average sentence
was 2 years

http://www.dchf.dk/publications_dk/d...oulsen_mfl.pdf


Nothing in this article invalidates my point , having served in the
German armed forces was specifically made a punishable act.

Keith

"William Black" wrote in message ...
"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" wrote in message
...
Keith Willshaw wrote:

2) There were a handful of British citizens in German uniform
versus thousands of soviet subjects who chose to serve with
the Germans against the soviet Russian regime.

I don't actually have a problem with this, a traitor is a traitor is a
traitor.

Or does committing crimes with large numbers of other people make it right?

There's no difference to me between a Don Cossack in a German uniform and a
British fascist in a German uniform, except that some of the Don Cossacks
shot at British troops, including possibly some of my family.

The real problem was that Stalin not only persecuted, with some
justification those who donned German uniforms but also those who were
POWs in German camps.

As Russian POWs were liberated by the advancing Red army they were
screened to weed out the most likely non conformists to the Soviet
philosophy, these went straight to the Gulag, the remainder went back
to the front, many to 'suicide battalians' which were used in the
front of wave attacks to absorb german bullets. At the end of
hostilities all suviving ex POWs in the Red army were rounded up and
sent to the Gulags for re-education. Ex POWs who had been liberated by
Allied Armies were considered very suspect, and received the worst
treatment of all, irrespective of their ethnic origin or political
allegiances. As far as Stalin was concerned suurender was a crime.

Peter

Keith Willshaw wrote:
"Vince Brannigan" wrote in message
...


Keith Willshaw wrote:


Even in Denmark, as pacific and easy going a nation as you
will ever find, Danish citizens who had joined the Waffen SS
were tried and many executed after the war. The last of
the surviving prisoners of Danmark Freikorp were released in the 1950's

I believe this is incorrect. The Freikorp was formed with the
permission of the wartime danish government.


The permission of a Nazi puppet regime is scarcely an excuse.



The law which the
volunteers were tried under was a postwar creation. The average sentence
was 2 years

http://www.dchf.dk/publications_dk/d...oulsen_mfl.pdf



Nothing in this article invalidates my point , having served in the
German armed forces was specifically made a punishable act.

After they lost. Its no trick to make an act a crime after it occurs.
it is of course unconstituional in the USA (ex post facto) etc.

Vince

"Vince Brannigan" wrote in message
...



Nothing in this article invalidates my point , having served in the
German armed forces was specifically made a punishable act.

After they lost. Its no trick to make an act a crime after it occurs.
it is of course unconstituional in the USA (ex post facto) etc.


Only if you accept the war time Danish Government as a
legitmate one operating of its own free will, I do not.

Had a portion of the US been invaded and subject to
a puppet regime I rather doubt that US citizens whoi
joined the SS would have escaped punishment based
on a plea that the aforementioned regime had sanctioned
their acts.

Keith

Keith Willshaw wrote:
"Vince Brannigan" wrote in message
...



Nothing in this article invalidates my point , having served in the
German armed forces was specifically made a punishable act.

After they lost. Its no trick to make an act a crime after it occurs.
it is of course unconstituional in the USA (ex post facto) etc.



Only if you accept the war time Danish Government as a
legitmate one operating of its own free will, I do not.


It surrendered. by definition no one surrenders "of their own free
will" its the result of force majure. But so what?

Had a portion of the US been invaded and subject to
a puppet regime I rather doubt that US citizens whoi
joined the SS would have escaped punishment based
on a plea that the aforementioned regime had sanctioned
their acts.

Depends on who wins. If all you mean is that might makes right and
winners make the rules sure, but don't confuse it with law. e.g. As a
political decision the Union government gave amnesty to the Confederate
traitors.

Vince

"Vince Brannigan" wrote in message
...


Keith Willshaw wrote:
"Vince Brannigan" wrote in message
...



Nothing in this article invalidates my point , having served in the
German armed forces was specifically made a punishable act.

After they lost. Its no trick to make an act a crime after it occurs.
it is of course unconstituional in the USA (ex post facto) etc.



Only if you accept the war time Danish Government as a
legitmate one operating of its own free will, I do not.


It surrendered. by definition no one surrenders "of their own free
will" its the result of force majure. But so what?


The citizens of a nation had better be careful about accepting
assurances of legality given by such a government
especially those regarding providing aid and comfort to
the occupying enemy forces.

This is only common sense when all is said and done.


Had a portion of the US been invaded and subject to
a puppet regime I rather doubt that US citizens whoi
joined the SS would have escaped punishment based
on a plea that the aforementioned regime had sanctioned
their acts.

Depends on who wins. If all you mean is that might makes right and
winners make the rules sure, but don't confuse it with law.

The rules by definition are the law, not justice perhaps
but the letter of the law is usually followed as it was in this case.


e.g. As a
political decision the Union government gave amnesty to the Confederate
traitors.

Quite so, thus following the letter of the law, however those
loyalists who had sided with the British during the American revolution
tended to get rather less gentle treatment.

Keith

Keith Willshaw wrote:



The citizens of a nation had better be careful about accepting
assurances of legality given by such a government
especially those regarding providing aid and comfort to
the occupying enemy forces.


YOu are referring to the Jananese under MacArther for example?


This is only common sense when all is said and done.



Had a portion of the US been invaded and subject to
a puppet regime I rather doubt that US citizens whoi
joined the SS would have escaped punishment based
on a plea that the aforementioned regime had sanctioned
their acts.

Depends on who wins. If all you mean is that might makes right and
winners make the rules sure, but don't confuse it with law.


The rules by definition are the law, not justice perhaps
but the letter of the law is usually followed as it was in this case.



e.g. As a
political decision the Union government gave amnesty to the Confederate
traitors.


Quite so, thus following the letter of the law, however those
loyalists who had sided with the British during the American revolution
tended to get rather less gentle treatment.

but who clearly were on much mroe solid legal ground

Vince