French planes are crap

In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:

In message , Chad Irby
writes
In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:
Trouble is, you need to generate enough sorties to protect your own base
and _then_ generate offensive capability... which means you need
numbers, and the rising cost and falling procurement of the Raptor means
it'll be seriously stretched.

That's only if you plan on using only one type of fighter, in small
numbers, for everything.

So, you plan to consign US pilots to agonised fiery deaths as their
antiquated deathtraps are blasted from the skies by newer, deadlier
enemies?

Note that those old "antiquated deathtraps" are competitive with the
current offerings from Europe, and much better than anything else in the
world.

Or are these upgraded aircraft thoroughly capable against the current
and projected threat, making the F-22 an expensive luxury?

They're good enough for air support and moderate-threat missions, but
not as good as the next generation planes (the F-22 and F-35).

Either your existing platforms are obsolete and need replacement, or
they aren't...

False premise. There's more than one mission, more than one level of
threat, and more than one plane in the inventory.

For *offense*, though, the new-generation European fighters are going to
have a much more difficult time.

I'm interested in the scenario where this is the case.

Long range missile combat.

There's not going to be that many of
them, either, at the rate they're cutting procurement.

"Not many" being around 150 Typhoons for the RAF _if_ Tranche 3 bites
the dust (which is by no means a given - serious contractual and
workshare issues to resolve before it's doable).

Just wait until the new planes hit the inventory, and watch the old
planes disappear completely overnight...

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:11:09 -0000, "killfile"
wrote:

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message

My facts are straight, the orders are from the US Air Force, Navy,
and Marines. The other countries have options to buy, and
several, including the Brits and Canadians have made verbal
commitments. There are always (in the US, at any rate) fall back
scenarios in the event of major program glitches. There is
no serious talk of canceling the F-35, as no other aircraft
can perform its mission. You do realize it has a STOL
variant? And we can quite easily afford them. You do
not seem to have any idea of the size of US budgets.

Al Minyard

So what you're saying is ... there's no export sales.

You are, in fact, admitting you were wrong. Amazing.

Matt

No, I am saying that there have been no payments. Several
countries are *planning* to purchase the F-35, as it is a
unique and extremely capable aircraft.

Al Minyard

It's fine to say a country is 'planning' to purchase something, but actually
ordering it is a different matter. the Czech republic was 'planning' to
order Gripens and Austria was 'planning' to order Eurofighters but it
doesn't look like either of those will happen.

There are no orders.

Matt

On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 17:41:24 +0000, "Paul J. Adam" wrote:

In message , Chad Irby
writes
In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:
Trouble is, you need to generate enough sorties to protect your own base
and _then_ generate offensive capability... which means you need
numbers, and the rising cost and falling procurement of the Raptor means
it'll be seriously stretched.

That's only if you plan on using only one type of fighter, in small
numbers, for everything.

So, you plan to consign US pilots to agonised fiery deaths as their
antiquated deathtraps are blasted from the skies by newer, deadlier
enemies?

I take it that you have never heard of the F-35?? It will be capable of
taking on any other aircraft in the world, with the exception of the F-22
(the UK plans on buying quite a few).

Al Minyard

"killfile" wrote in message
...
"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:11:09 -0000, "killfile"
wrote:

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message

My facts are straight, the orders are from the US Air Force, Navy,
and Marines. The other countries have options to buy, and
several, including the Brits and Canadians have made verbal
commitments. There are always (in the US, at any rate) fall back
scenarios in the event of major program glitches. There is
no serious talk of canceling the F-35, as no other aircraft
can perform its mission. You do realize it has a STOL
variant? And we can quite easily afford them. You do
not seem to have any idea of the size of US budgets.

Al Minyard

So what you're saying is ... there's no export sales.

You are, in fact, admitting you were wrong. Amazing.

Matt

No, I am saying that there have been no payments. Several
countries are *planning* to purchase the F-35, as it is a
unique and extremely capable aircraft.

Al Minyard

It's fine to say a country is 'planning' to purchase something, but
actually
ordering it is a different matter. the Czech republic was 'planning' to
order Gripens and Austria was 'planning' to order Eurofighters but it
doesn't look like either of those will happen.

Austria has ordered (12?) Typhoons

On or about Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:04:53 -0600, Alan Minyard
allegedly uttered:

On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 17:41:24 +0000, "Paul J. Adam" wrote:

In message , Chad Irby
writes
In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:
Trouble is, you need to generate enough sorties to protect your own base
and _then_ generate offensive capability... which means you need
numbers, and the rising cost and falling procurement of the Raptor means
it'll be seriously stretched.

That's only if you plan on using only one type of fighter, in small
numbers, for everything.

So, you plan to consign US pilots to agonised fiery deaths as their
antiquated deathtraps are blasted from the skies by newer, deadlier
enemies?

I take it that you have never heard of the F-35?? It will be capable of
taking on any other aircraft in the world, with the exception of the F-22
(the UK plans on buying quite a few).

Which raises the obvious question that Paul was hinting at....

If the F-35 is capable of taking on anything, and is a good attack
aircraft, what do you need the F/A-22 for?

---
Peter Kemp

Life is short - Drink Faster

"Peter Kemp" peter_n_kempathotmaildotcom@ wrote in message
...
On or about Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:04:53 -0600, Alan Minyard
allegedly uttered:

On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 17:41:24 +0000, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:

In message , Chad Irby
writes
In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:
Trouble is, you need to generate enough sorties to protect your own
base
and _then_ generate offensive capability... which means you need
numbers, and the rising cost and falling procurement of the Raptor
means
it'll be seriously stretched.

That's only if you plan on using only one type of fighter, in small
numbers, for everything.

So, you plan to consign US pilots to agonised fiery deaths as their
antiquated deathtraps are blasted from the skies by newer, deadlier
enemies?

I take it that you have never heard of the F-35?? It will be capable of
taking on any other aircraft in the world, with the exception of the F-22
(the UK plans on buying quite a few).

Which raises the obvious question that Paul was hinting at....

If the F-35 is capable of taking on anything, and is a good attack
aircraft, what do you need the F/A-22 for?

We don't.

In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:

I know this for a fact: for the price the US was willing to sell and
sustain, you could buy and fly two Eurofighters for one F-22.

Which is pretty much exactly what I was claiming.

....as opposed to the insane "six to one" cost ratio claimed by someone
earlier in the thread.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

In article ,
Peter Kemp peter_n_kempathotmaildotcom@ wrote:

If the F-35 is capable of taking on anything, and is a good attack
aircraft, what do you need the F/A-22 for?

Hitting targets about twice as far away.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

"Ian Craig" wrote in message
...

"killfile" wrote in message
...
"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:11:09 -0000, "killfile"
wrote:

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message

My facts are straight, the orders are from the US Air Force, Navy,
and Marines. The other countries have options to buy, and
several, including the Brits and Canadians have made verbal
commitments. There are always (in the US, at any rate) fall back
scenarios in the event of major program glitches. There is
no serious talk of canceling the F-35, as no other aircraft
can perform its mission. You do realize it has a STOL
variant? And we can quite easily afford them. You do
not seem to have any idea of the size of US budgets.

Al Minyard

So what you're saying is ... there's no export sales.

You are, in fact, admitting you were wrong. Amazing.

Matt

No, I am saying that there have been no payments. Several
countries are *planning* to purchase the F-35, as it is a
unique and extremely capable aircraft.

Al Minyard

It's fine to say a country is 'planning' to purchase something, but
actually
ordering it is a different matter. the Czech republic was 'planning' to
order Gripens and Austria was 'planning' to order Eurofighters but it
doesn't look like either of those will happen.

Austria has ordered (12?) Typhoons


Whoops, you're right, they did order 18 Typhoons back in August.

Unfortunately, the Austrian opposition is fighting tooth and nail to get
that order cancelled, so the future of the program is very cloudy indeed.
Their proposition is that they instead take MIG-29SMT's (or SM2's ... or
whatever the latest MIG-29 varient is this week) as an off-set against the
debt that Russia owes to Austria.

Matt

"Chad Irby" wrote in message
m...
In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:

I know this for a fact: for the price the US was willing to sell and
sustain, you could buy and fly two Eurofighters for one F-22.

Which is pretty much exactly what I was claiming.

...as opposed to the insane "six to one" cost ratio claimed by someone
earlier in the thread.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

A GAO report put the price of a single F-22 at $200m with no parts, weapons
or servicing, if production is capped at the current rate, for a total of 70
aircraft. Which, if they do want the F-35, it might well be.

Weirder things have happened ... they did scrap Crusader, after all.

Matt