Spins

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote in news:Xns9A2928BE93316****upropeeh@
207.14.116.130:

Dudley Henriques wrote in

Yep, that's right. I remember the name now. It was Don something or
another running the commuter at the time, though.

Don Young

Bertie
Yup, that him; Young's Flying Service. I used to fly in there several
times a week in our 337 owned by a friend of mine who owned motels in
Wildwood Crest.
About the commuter line at Bader; I seem to remember Shaver was using
Beech 1900's near the end of his run there if I'm not mistaken. I can't
recall what they started with. I think they were tied into Altair at one
time.

--
Dudley Henriques

"sp" == sockpuppet writes:

sp Why is it that a PPL is obtainable without basic spin recovery
sp demonstration? What about inverted recoveries?

For the same reason that two-wheel drifts, skids, and so on aren't
required for a normal driving test.
--
We, on our side, are praying to Him to give us victory, because we
believe we are right; but those on the other side pray to Him, too,
for victory, believing they are right. What must He think of us?
~ Abraham Lincoln

* * sp Why is it that a PPL is obtainable without basic spin recovery
* * sp demonstration? What about inverted recoveries?

For the same reason that two-wheel drifts, skids, and so on aren't
required for a normal driving test.

What reason is that?

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote in news:Xns9A2928BE93316****upropeeh@
207.14.116.130:

Dudley Henriques wrote in

Yep, that's right. I remember the name now. It was Don something or
another running the commuter at the time, though.

Don Young

Bertie
Yup, that him; Young's Flying Service. I used to fly in there several
times a week in our 337 owned by a friend of mine who owned motels in
Wildwood Crest.
About the commuter line at Bader; I seem to remember Shaver was using
Beech 1900's near the end of his run there if I'm not mistaken. I can't
recall what they started with. I think they were tied into Altair at one
time.


Might have been. I never met the guy anyway. The Young family were running
SJA which was the Allegheny commuter operator as well as the FBO in Bader,
OC and Cape May. Interesting airport, Cape May. Lots of nifty stuff there.


Bertie

Bob Fry wrote in :

"sp" == sockpuppet writes:

sp Why is it that a PPL is obtainable without basic spin recovery
sp demonstration? What about inverted recoveries?

For the same reason that two-wheel drifts, skids, and so on aren't
required for a normal driving test.

But we should do!


Bertie

On Jan 17, 10:39 pm, wrote:
On Jan 17, 6:00 am, " wrote:



On Jan 17, 3:23 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

I agree, but to be fair, a lot of the old guys didn't know what they were
talking about either. I've met a few.
But it's true the direction has changed and not alwasys for the better.
If I hear one more guy say "but that's how the pros do it"....

Bertie

Very true -- just because you "been there" doesn't mean you learned
much.

Regarding spins -- There's some dangerous self-delusion going on if
you think your 50 spins in a Citabria will keep you alive when youspina loaded C210/PA-28/A36/S35, etc on base to final.

Few pilots fly airplanes loaded in the utility category (if the
airplane is so certified at all). Many are flown in the Normal
category, with an aft (though still within limits) CG.

Spina normal category, aft-loaded airplane not certified for spins
and all thePAREin the world won't assure your survival.

Dan

Many assume that they have been "spin trained" if they've done a few
intentional spins to a heading. Although the intentional one- or two-
turn spin is among the stock spin training exercises, it does not in
and of itself constitute a complete spin training program, which
necessarily must encompass stall/spin awareness and so much more.

In fact, pilots who have only done an intentional spin or two, devoid
of any context vis-a-vis how that experience relates to typical
accident scenarios, will be no more capable of preventing an
accidental spin departure than pilots who have not done intentional
spins. (Several studies back this contention up.)

Recovering from an intentional spin is one thing (and that exercise is
good for developing control discipline and the ability to ignore the
sensory commotion associated with spinning), but learning the
mechanisms that lead to a spin departure, and learning to recognize
the conditions preceding spin accidents, and knowing the warning signs/
precursors of an impending spin departure are far more important,
especially since 90+ percent of stall/spin accidents occur at or below
traffic pattern altitude where insufficient room is available for
recovery.

The other point to remember is that spins do not occur in a vacuum. It
is the pilot who, knowingly or unknowingly, creates the conditions
necessary to spin. The airplane simply does what it's told.

As for Normal category aircraft -- even though intentional spins are
not approved, as long as the aircraft is loaded within its prescribed
weight & balance envelope, and as long as sufficient altitude exists,
and as long as the pilot performs the correct recovery inputs, even a
Normal category type must be recoverable from at least a one turn spin
departure. Unfortunately, by the time such airplanes enter an
inadvertent spin, it is already too late from a practical standpoint.

In the three hour course I and many other instructors I've trained
teach, pilots will end up doing 20 or so spin entries/recoveries.
Sure, they'll do intentional 1- and 2-turn spins. But they'll also
experience aggravated spin modes. They'll recover from spins entered
from many different attitudes and configurations. And they'll perform
numerous spin recognition/prevention exercises.

Rich Stowellwww.richstowell.com
30,000 spin entries/recoveries in 170 different airplanes, several
students with documented "saves," and not dead yet...

Thanks for the clarification, Rich -- very informative without
pontificating.

Dan

This is the value in newsgroups -- submit a position, knock it around,
see what comes up, and re-evaluate your current position based on
evidence and experience.

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
wrote in
:

...
The typicl spin accident, if there is such a thing, is the famous
overcooked turn onto final.

I watched two guys die after doing that on a tight, low, turn to a short
final...

Geoff
What gets them isn't really the turn per se, but the way that turn is
flown. The combination of the increased stall speed due to the turn
coupled with some excess inside rudder causing a skid as the stall breaks
is a perfect pro-spin setup. The two ingredients for spin are present;
stall and a yaw rate coupled simultaneously .
You can get away with a tight low turn if it's coordinated and you feed in
enough power to offset the drag rise; or even better yet an unloaded tight
descending turn if some altitude and some radius need to be scrubbed
off,(I don't recommend doing these BTW :-) but it's that lack of attention
to the extra needed thrust as the drag rises in the turn and cheating a
bit with inside rudder to "force that nose around that will get you
killed.


--
Dudley Henriques

Since I probably qualify as hopelessly unqualified, and also since both of
you have already described this in different words, I should probably "keep
my mouth shut"; but from all I have heard, things happen much more suddenly
as part of an uncoordinated accellerated stall.

I never personally got to explore the accellerated stall portion of the
envelope, and only had an accellerated stall demonstrated to me once. That
once was by a pilot who was so proficient, smooth and coordinated that the
stall was a complete non-event and we simply flew out of it and continued
the turn as though nothing had happened. And, yes, this was in a Cessna 152
that was appropriately certified for that sort of work. However, viewed in
another manner, the guy (who was a high time instructor) would have been the
perfect candidate to train new instrucors to let their students kill them...

When I resume flying, as I plan to do, I also plan to more fully explore the
accelerated stall area of the envelope--in an appropriate trainer of course.

Peter

On Jan 17, 6:58 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Stefan wrote in news:c98be$478fd695$d9a2716b
I'll never understand why non-cageable gyros even exist.

Money

Because pilots forget to uncage them before takeoff into the
soup and lose control. I leaned on an airplane that had a cageable
DG, and used to set it to the runway heading, then forget to unlock
the thing after I lined up. If I'd been flying into IMC and had caged
a gyro horizon I'd have been in much bigger trouble.
Our Citabrias have a pullable breaker for the turn
coordinator. Prevents damage during spins or other aerobatics.

Dan

On Jan 17, 8:08*pm, wrote:
In the three hour course I and many other instructors I've trained
teach, pilots will end up doing 20 or so spin entries/recoveries.
Sure, they'll do intentional 1- and 2-turn spins. But they'll also
experience aggravated spin modes. They'll recover from spins entered
from many different attitudes and configurations. And they'll perform
numerous spin recognition/prevention exercises.

An earlier post made note of an unintentional spin that happened
during a steep turn, 70 degrees, where the aircraft rolled over
opposite and entered the spin. In your training program are entries of
that sort demonstrated/practiced? Any ohter kind of "unintentional
entries"?

It seems like much is written in books and on this thread about how
unintentional entries occur. Spending some time in those situations to
understand them with prevention in mind (especially letting it go
until you do enter the spin) seems like valuable training to me. I'm
thinking of the skidding turn onto final, for instance.


Some of the stall/spin prevention exercises we do:
Many power on and power off stalls where the student performs the
entire sequence, from entry through recovery, looking only at one wing
tip, or counting cars on the freeway below, or looking into the right
rear seat; coordinated turns into skidded turns and back to
coordinated turns; falling leaf/rudder stalls; incipient spins where
the pilot instantly recovers the moment the airplane departs.

Some aggravated spins we do, each starting from a normal spin
configuration first:
A spin where we change throttle setting only; a spin where we change
aileron position; a spin where we move the elevator forward
prematurely (prior to opposite rudder).

Some of the unusual attitude spin entries we do:
The classic skidded turn into a spin; a climbing left turn/over the
top right spin entry; a spin entry at the top of a loop; an
accelerated stall/spin from level flight (snap roll); a spin from an
Immelmann; a spin during the pivot from a Hammerhead.

We also do a number of coordination exercises, spiral entries/
recoveries (to contrast against the spin), gliding approaches to
landings, and other stuff.

Rich
www.richstowell.com
author, "The Light Airplane Pilot's Guide to Stall/Spin Awareness"

On Jan 17, 1:23 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
wrote:

In a descending turn, the inside wing has a higher angle

of attack and will stall first, even if the airplane is coordinated in
the turn. Then it'll spin. Too many students are never taught that.
They think that as long as they're coordinated, they're safe. It's not
true. That's why we have stall/spin scenario training: so they see the
various conditions that can cause it. Awareness is greatly enhanced,
believe me. They get much more careful in the circuit.

Dan

We'll have to get together someday and have a quiet drink over this one
Dan :-)))

--
Dudley Henriques

Love to do that. Coffee, though. Here's a good article on
the subject:

http://www.casa.gov.au/fsa/2000/sep/FSA34-35.pdf

Second page deals with it.

Dan