Handpropping _ What are the FAR's or AC's

I've heard people say things like - it's illegal to start
your plane by propping it by hand unless there's a licensed
pilot at the controls. Others have said it's illegal to use
the armstrong starter unless it's tied down. Does anyone
know what the applicable regulations, FAR's and Advisory
Circulars are on the subject of starting by hand?

There are no regulations on the subject, just recommendations. If anything
bad were to happen, "careless and reckless" would be the relevant
regulation.

Bob Gardner

"Brian Jennis" wrote in message
news
I've heard people say things like - it's illegal to start
your plane by propping it by hand unless there's a licensed
pilot at the controls. Others have said it's illegal to use
the armstrong starter unless it's tied down. Does anyone
know what the applicable regulations, FAR's and Advisory
Circulars are on the subject of starting by hand?

These regulations are Canadian. There are no restrictions in the U.S.
Its not reasonable to expect another pilot to be around everytime you
fly. Just be careful and never **NEVER** hand prop a plane that was
not designed to be hand proped (or anything more than around 100 hp).
I would never consider proping my Mooney.

-Robert, CFI (frequent hand proping guy).


Brian Jennis wrote in message . ..
I've heard people say things like - it's illegal to start
your plane by propping it by hand unless there's a licensed
pilot at the controls. Others have said it's illegal to use
the armstrong starter unless it's tied down. Does anyone
know what the applicable regulations, FAR's and Advisory
Circulars are on the subject of starting by hand?

If anything
bad were to happen, "careless and reckless" would be the relevant
regulation.

I tried to pin my CFI down on these matters, and he said: "Dan, there
are all sorts of reasons why you don't want this to become an issue."

Incidentally, the original poster (I think) said that a pilot had to
be at the controls. I was instructed that a pilot or *mechanic* had to
be.

There is a page on hand-propping at www.pipercubforum.com/handprop.htm

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

"Cub Driver" wrote in message ...

Incidentally, the original poster (I think) said that a pilot had to
be at the controls. I was instructed that a pilot or *mechanic* had to
be.

As others have pointed out, there are no requirements in the regs (other than the
catchall don't be a hazard). Back when I was pre-student pilot, I helped a guy
start his taylorcraft. It takes about two minutes to explain how to work the mags
and mixture.

It's unbelievable to me that people would hand prop a plane without either someone
at the controls or the aircraft restrained. Nearly all of these accidents happen because
the throttle is a little more advanced than expected. Even if you had to leave the
controls unattended to untie the running plane, it would be safer (as you'd have the
chance to bring it back to a safer idle first).

Had a hand propping incident at OSH this year. Guy pulls his Luscombe and turns it
perpendicular to the rows. Starts it and it starts heading for the weeds (out accross the
runway cleararea and eventually into some trees). However, the pilot says, "oh no" and
attempts to grab the thing. This only suceeds in turning the aircraft now so that it is
heading through a Cessna wing, and the tent of the aircraft underneath of it. Through
shear dumb luck, the occupants of the tent escape with only cuts from pieces of their
aircraft being thrown into them.

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 18:28:16 -0400, "Bob Martin"
wrote:

That was interesting.

Found out later you should never hand-prop an engine like that one
(something to do with the mags kicking over too soon or something like
that.)

Why would the mags kick over too soon? Aren't they preset and fixed
so that they don't kick over too soon?

Or did you mean that the preset (around 26 degrees BTDC) is too
advanced for hand propping?

Corky Scott

Had a hand propping where my bird got away from me and whacked into a
pole. Had the tail tied down, brakes set, and wheels chocked. I was
careless in that I didn't check the strength of the rope and since I was
in the grass the chocks needed to be larger than my usual chocks. The
throttle was, in fact, advanced a bit too far. On start up the rope
broke, the wheels slid in the grass and rode over the chocks, I grabbed
the wing and turned the plane around and eventually had to let go. It
weathervaned right around again and smacked into a pole. Luckily, no one
hurt and no major damage to other aircraft. I'm rebuilding my bird now.
This was the first time I had ever started it without someone at the
controls.

Things I should have done: I could have turned the fuel valve off after
priming the engine. The engine would have run long enough for me to turn
the fuel valve back on. I could have tied a string from the throttle
back to the tail tiedown. That would have retarted the throttle as the
plane moved forward. Lesson learned is that one should take as many
precautions as humanely possible when handpropping.

What I REALLY should have done: Installed the perfectly good starter
that I had sitting in my shop.


In article ,
"Ron Natalie" wrote:

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

Incidentally, the original poster (I think) said that a pilot had to
be at the controls. I was instructed that a pilot or *mechanic* had to
be.

As others have pointed out, there are no requirements in the regs (other than
the
catchall don't be a hazard). Back when I was pre-student pilot, I helped a
guy
start his taylorcraft. It takes about two minutes to explain how to work
the mags
and mixture.

It's unbelievable to me that people would hand prop a plane without either
someone
at the controls or the aircraft restrained. Nearly all of these accidents
happen because
the throttle is a little more advanced than expected. Even if you had to
leave the
controls unattended to untie the running plane, it would be safer (as you'd
have the
chance to bring it back to a safer idle first).


--
Take out the airplane for reply

Ever see the picture of the guy at about 1000' in a Cub, standing on the
wheel and handpropping the thing?

It's a cool shot.

Fellow Tripacer owner, about 2 years ago now, got his hand pretty well F'd
up handpropping a Continental O-290 in an experimental. Didn't get out of
the way fast enough. Never wrap your fingers around the blade. Use your
palms only with just enough fingertip and pull so that you are always moving
away from the prop arc.

Back when I had my ultralight (around '81, '82) an old timer had his Corbin
Baby Ace tied to an engine hoist when it got away from him. It made it
almost to the runway (perpendicular). I think it was the right wing that
caught the end of the wing of a Cessna and that flipped it over.

Almost bought that plane after.

On the mags thing, is it the impulse coupling on some engines' mags that
could ruin your day? Get to a certain point and the impulse coupling fires
off a spark before the piston's TDC and you get whacked in the back of the
fingers with what sould have been the following blade.

mike regish

"Newps" wrote in message
...


Cub Driver wrote:



Incidentally, the original poster (I think) said that a pilot had to
be at the controls. I was instructed that a pilot or *mechanic* had to
be.

So J3's are two pilot airplanes? This comes up frequently and the real
answer is you don't legally need anybody to hand prop a plane.

On 10 Aug 2004 11:11:24 -0500, Todd Pattist
wrote:

It's unbelievable to me that people would hand prop a plane without either someone
at the controls or the aircraft restrained.

I agree, but I think the question was whether the person at
the controls has to have a pilot certificate, or can it be
someone who has received the "two minutes" and can safely
handle the start until the pilot gets in.

If you fly a Piper Cub, you will sooner or later (probably sooner)
find yourself in a position where you either prop the engine without
someone at the controls, or you take up residence in another
community. Not many airports will have someone available to help with
this project.

Tying down the tail sounds great, but have you ever walked from the
tail to the door with the motor running? It's miles and miles, and you
never felt so vulnerable!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:29:32 -0600, Newps wrote:

Incidentally, the original poster (I think) said that a pilot had to
be at the controls. I was instructed that a pilot or *mechanic* had to
be.

So J3's are two pilot airplanes? This comes up frequently and the real
answer is you don't legally need anybody to hand prop a plane.

As posted, the question is what happens to the pilot whose plane gets
away from him. Absent a qualified individual at the controls, he
likely will be found to have been careless, reckless, whatever it
takes to pull his certificate for a while.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com