Interior Upgrade Question

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:46:40 -0600, Don Hammer wrote:


My experience is with large transport category Part 25 aircraft and
the burn test requirements are much more severe than Part 23. Read
25.853 sometime. It costs $5000 to burn test each material installed
in a Gulfstream or other transport category aircraft.

Strange, I just looked over the paperwork/billing for a brand spanking
new interior on a "transport category" aircraft, and the only
additional charge was roughly $5000 (total) to burn up one of each
type of seat cushion/back to meet the fire blocking regs.

Does that make "my" interior illegal?

TC

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:14:32 -0600, Almarz wrote:

snip
You are free to put in materials
that may kill you and do the work yourself, but at least you die
legally.


The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

ROTFLMAO!

TC

If you don't mind my asking Bob, what did you have to pay for those
yokes???

Chuck




On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 04:43:36 GMT, Bob Noel
wrote:

In article ,
Chuck wrote:

Come to think of it, I'd love to change the yokes in my Cherokee while
I'm at it. Get some newer models instead of these original bow-tie
yokes. And I guess same question would apply -- would they let me
take from one certified model to another???

I don't know about the seats. But the old bowtie yokes can indeed
be replaced by the new rams horn yokes. Look at the control wheel
AD that applies to the bow-tie yokes. Notice that a terminating action
is to replace them with the rams horn yokes. (I recently did that to
my cherokee 140).

I, as well as many others here, do really see your point. Judging
from your posts, it's probably best that you stay away from little
airplanes. Most models of the aging fleet have so many idiosyncracies
that you would never be able to learn them all, thus never be
confident enough in your own ability to make a logical decision. That
could be dangerous to an owner who depends on a person to do his
maintenance. Stay with the big boys where they find it necessary to
employ lawyers to write manuals on how to properly wipe down your
tools after performing a task.

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:46:40 -0600, Don Hammer wrote:

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:47:47 -0600, "Brian Sponcil"
wrotD:


"Don Hammer" wrote in message
. ..
If it goes in a Type Certificated FAR 23 aircraft
it gets tested. CAR 4b certified aircraft probably have to meet a
lower standard, but why take a chance?

I didn't notice all of that regulation helping the swiss air passengers too
much.

If I were to accomplish an Annual Inspection on an aircraft that has
been re-covered, I would review the burn tests and log entries.

Yikes! This is the very reason I don't have my local FBO do my annuals.


-Brian
N33431


Brian,

My experience is with large transport category Part 25 aircraft and
the burn test requirements are much more severe than Part 23. Read
25.853 sometime. It costs $5000 to burn test each material installed
in a Gulfstream or other transport category aircraft. There is one
reason we have to do all that and it is because a whole plane load of
people died on the ground from smoke inhalation on Air Canada in 1979.
Everybody was alive when the aircraft first touched down and if I
remember right, 60 or so died in their seats. See AD 79-08-05 R1 for
the reason. Ever wonder why you get the briefing on every commercial
flight about lavatory smoke detectors even though they don't allow
smoking? You wouldn't believe the steps it takes to certify an
entertainment system now and it is because of Swissair. Every
accident is a learning experience that usually results in regulatory
change.

I am an A&P with IA and haven't done an annual in over thirty years.
I like small aircraft and fly them all the time, but I refuse to put
my livelihood on the line because the owners of small aircraft such as
N33431 decide to sneak something by me that wasn't legal because they
are too cheap to do things right. Worse yet, can you imagine how any
mechanic would feel if someone died in your aircraft because he missed
something on your inspection? Would you be able to sleep well if the
next owner of your aircraft dies because of something you did? What
would you say to the family and jury at the trial? Think you won't
have a fire? Swissair or Air Canada didn't think they would either.

Why do you feel you have the right to put anyone in that position and
advise others to do the same? Proper maintenance is part of ownership
and if you can't afford to maintain the aircraft, then sell it.

I may be overly sensitive about fire issues, but once you've had smoke
in the cockpit, late at night, at 50W over the Atlantic - trust me,
you will remember it.

Enough said - down off the soap box.

In article ,
Chuck wrote:

If you don't mind my asking Bob, what did you have to pay for those
yokes???

I can't find my record of that - it was about two years ago.
I'm pretty sure I got them from Wentworth. I think I paid $135
to powdercoat them. The parts required (bolts, joints, etc) were
a chunk of money, and then the A&P needed about 19 hours of
labor to replace the yokes.

In other words, it wasn't cheap - but one of my yokes failed
the AD for cracks.

--
Bob Noel

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 02:18:52 GMT, Chuck wrote:

If you don't mind my asking Bob, what did you have to pay for those
yokes???

Chuck

Hopefully you can find them cheaper than this. If you really want to
change them, you might want to call some salvage companies for prices.

http://www.avion.com/Products/AvionC...trolWheel.html

HTH.
z

: a chunk of money, and then the A&P needed about 19 hours of
: labor to replace the yokes.

I don't know if necessary for that job, but my mechanic has replaced the
universal joint in the yoke of an older Arrow he had. Aside from the ridiculous
liability of the stupid little 1/2" thing, it's a bitch to install too from what he
said. Something about special tapered bolts and needing some custom machining on the
new one to put it in. Nineteen hours might seem excessive, but with operations like
that it wouldn't surprise me.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

Don Hammer wrote
My experience is with large transport category Part 25 aircraft and
the burn test requirements are much more severe than Part 23. Read
25.853 sometime.

I have, and it reads exactly the same as 23.853. That should give you
a clue - 23.853 aqpplies ONLY to commuter category aircraft certified
under 14CFR23. Not normal, utility, or aerobatic aircraft. The
standards for those aircraft (as well as those certified under CAR 3)
are much less stringent. Years ago, when AC 43-13 was mistakenly
printed with a paragraph requiring burn tests for all Part 23
aircraft, Rod Farlee (who used to be a regular here) sent a letter to
O'Brien himself, and got a reply stating this - and also stating that
AC 43-13 was wrong and would be corrected. And so it was. I'll be
happy to send a copy of this letter to anyone here.

In other words - everything you said is totally inapplicable to small
aircraft not operated under Part 135. It was nothing but FUD - Fear,
Uncertainty, Doubt.

I am an A&P with IA and haven't done an annual in over thirty years.

Good. We don't need people trying to apply regulations written for
large commercial aircraft to small private aircraft.

Michael

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 03:16:39 GMT, zatatime wrote:

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 02:18:52 GMT, Chuck wrote:

If you don't mind my asking Bob, what did you have to pay for those
yokes???

Chuck

Hopefully you can find them cheaper than this. If you really want to
change them, you might want to call some salvage companies for prices.

http://www.avion.com/Products/AvionC...trolWheel.html

HTH.
z


OUCH !!!

Nice looking set and very practical with the dual PTTs on each 'horn'
of the ram's head yoke. But a bit pricy too! How in the world do
they get off asking almost $1,000 for a pair of yokes? I could
probably have yokes custom made for that price. And since they
advertise STC "pending" -- it would be exactly the same. I'd have to
go thru the same 337 nonsense with the FAA whether I use theirs or
build my own...

Thanks for the link though. At least I know there are companies
making them.


Chuck

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 20:05:13 GMT, Chuck wrote:

Thanks for the link though. At least I know there are companies
making them.


You're welcome. Now you know why I said to stick with the bowties!
G

z