Newbie holding questions

Okay Steve, I didn't realize until just now that you are only talking
about enroute holds. I was applying your comments to all types of holds.
Will you agree that a hold at an initial approach fix will always
include and EFC time?


-----Original Message-----
From: Steven P. McNicoll ]
Posted At: Thursday, January 05, 2006 11:49 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Newbie holding questions
Subject: Newbie holding questions


"Jim Carter" wrote in message
. net...

I'm not understanding your comment about "not expected to hold"
in the even of a radio failure without an EFC time. Are you implying
that as soon as I have radio failure I should begin to execute the
approach or to continue as flight planned or initially cleared? I'm
real
concerned that assumption could lead to at best some heated phone
calls
and at worst a leading story on the evening news.


An EFC was not issued because ATC did not expect any delay, that is,
they
did not expect that an actual hold would be needed or entered. As you
approach the holding fix you're a bit concerned because you have not
been
cleared beyond that fix. So you query ATC and receive no response.
You've
experienced a two-way radio communications failure. Since no EFC was
received you are to leave the clearance limit upon arrival over it.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:



Make them say how much delay or give an EFC/EAC time
or you'll be holding until the fuel runs out. Maybe the
book does not require ATC to issue a time, but my sense of
self-preservation wants to know.



How much delay? The answer is "None." The book says do not specify an EFC
if no delay is expected. If your sense of self-preservation can't live with
that don't fly IFR.


Why don't you recommend that for inclusion in the AIM under "cooperation
and communications between pilots and ATC."

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:



Nonsense. What's the point of having an EFC when you won't be entering a
hold? What's the point of demanding an EFC where an EFC can't be issued?


Under those circumstances some helpful controllers have been known to
state after the hold is issued, "except no delay at ACMEE."

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 03:45:01 GMT, Jim Carter wrote:

Okay Steve, I didn't realize until just now that you are only talking
about enroute holds. I was applying your comments to all types of holds.
Will you agree that a hold at an initial approach fix will always
include and EFC time?

I am like you Jim, seems that Steve is not very clear in what he says.

Though to be honest, I always thought a hold, is a hold is a hold, if I am
told to hold at ABC VOR enroute, I will be expecting an EFC to leave ABC
VOR to proceed on to to my destination, paper stop or not as he describes.

Are there special procedures for an enroute holds? Am I not expected to
fly a racetrack pattern around the fix I am instructed to hold at?

Like others said, it would be more appropriate to put a speed restriction
rather then hold, but Steve insists that I won't be flying in circles when
I am asked to hold.

When I got my one and only reroute, I was routed to a VOR, and I didn't
even think of asking for a EFC since I figured there was no delay as I was
being re-routed around a MOA.

With the vague way Steve writes in this newsgroup, kinda makes me nervous
if I had to ever fly through his sector if he is an ATC controller.

Allen

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

Without an EFC I wouldn't enter the hold. It's a moot point anyway,
whatever caused my comm radios to go belly up will affect my nav radios the
same way and I won't be able to identify the holding fix.

Why would a transistor failure or other comm circuit failure affect your
nav?


Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Why would a transistor failure or other comm circuit failure affect your
nav?


It wouldn't. Nor would it affect my other comm.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Why would a transistor failure or other comm circuit failure affect your
nav?



It wouldn't. Nor would it affect my other comm.



Then why did you write: "It's a moot point anyway, whatever caused my
comm radios to go belly up will affect my nav radios the same way and I
won't be able to identify the holding fix."

Matt

Steve's a big boy and doesn't need me or anyone else defending him. I
find that when I finally read what he meant it is very plain. I think my
problem is that I don't understand his original premise as precisely as
does he. I'm sure he is very precise and accurate in-the-moment, which
is really the only time he'd be giving direction anyway. So all is well
in the great wild blue yonder...

Regarding the enroute hold, I've only had to do them during training or
check rides, or at Portland, Or in the '70s while they were down to only
one runway. They were the GA and AC airport so you either flew your
approaches at the 727 speeds or you got to hold enroute until you agreed
to fly your approaches at 727 speeds. It was a wonderful environment in
which to train students right at the end of their study for their
instrument or II ticket. Ah, the good ol' days...



-----Original Message-----
From: A Lieberman ]
Posted At: Friday, January 06, 2006 4:33 PM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Newbie holding questions
Subject: Newbie holding questions

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 03:45:01 GMT, Jim Carter wrote:

Okay Steve, I didn't realize until just now that you are only
talking
about enroute holds. I was applying your comments to all types of
holds.
Will you agree that a hold at an initial approach fix will always
include and EFC time?

I am like you Jim, seems that Steve is not very clear in what he says.

Though to be honest, I always thought a hold, is a hold is a hold, if
I am
told to hold at ABC VOR enroute, I will be expecting an EFC to leave
ABC
VOR to proceed on to to my destination, paper stop or not as he
describes.

Are there special procedures for an enroute holds? Am I not expected
to
fly a racetrack pattern around the fix I am instructed to hold at?

Like others said, it would be more appropriate to put a speed
restriction
rather then hold, but Steve insists that I won't be flying in circles
when
I am asked to hold.

When I got my one and only reroute, I was routed to a VOR, and I
didn't
even think of asking for a EFC since I figured there was no delay as I
was
being re-routed around a MOA.

With the vague way Steve writes in this newsgroup, kinda makes me
nervous
if I had to ever fly through his sector if he is an ATC controller.

Allen

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Then why did you write: "It's a moot point anyway, whatever caused my comm
radios to go belly up will affect my nav radios the same way and I won't
be able to identify the holding fix."


I have two comm radios, they share no components, have separate antennas. I
use a headset but also have a hand microphone and cabin speaker. I have
auxiliary headset jacks that allow me to bypass the audio panel. What
single point of failure would disable both of my comm radios but not affect
my nav radios?

What
single point of failure would disable both of my comm radios but not affect
my nav radios?

I don't know. But unless you are the only person in the air, procedures
must be designed to take into account the failure modes of other
aircraft, which could easily include loss of com without loss of nav.
And if you =are= the only person in the air, ATC is not necessary.

Jose
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