Soviet Escort of American Bombers???

Was looking at a reference page for the Yak-9 where
it mentioned a model Yak-9DD which had extra fuel
tanks installed for a range of up to just under 1400
miles. The stated purpose was for the escort of
American bombers attacking Romanian oil fields.

While the many raids against Ploesti are well known,
I've never heard of Soviet fighter escort for American
bombers during any of them, or other attacks elsewhere.

In fact, I don't think that many bomber raids against
Axis targets even originated from Soviet controlled
territory throughout the war, so it would seem a
special version of Yak-9 to do long range escort would
be unlikely.

What about long range Soviet attacks requiring the
services of an enhanced range fighter? Seems long
range bombing was pretty much a British/US activity.


SMH

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
Was looking at a reference page for the Yak-9 where
it mentioned a model Yak-9DD which had extra fuel
tanks installed for a range of up to just under 1400
miles. The stated purpose was for the escort of
American bombers attacking Romanian oil fields.

While the many raids against Ploesti are well known,
I've never heard of Soviet fighter escort for American
bombers during any of them, or other attacks elsewhere.

In fact, I don't think that many bomber raids against
Axis targets even originated from Soviet controlled
territory throughout the war, so it would seem a
special version of Yak-9 to do long range escort would
be unlikely.

What about long range Soviet attacks requiring the
services of an enhanced range fighter? Seems long
range bombing was pretty much a British/US activity.


The Soviets had a handful of long range bombers.
The Petlyakov Pe-8 was a 4 engined bomber with a
range of 2300 miles carrying 8000lbs of bombs.
They took part in at least one raid on Berlin in August 1941
but they mostly seem to have been used as long range VIP
transports. Molotov flew from Moscow to Washington in
one IRC.

Keith

what about the shuttle raids the usaaf did to poltava, then to italy? though
i'll admit i didnt see anything about russian a/c doing escort work.
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
Was looking at a reference page for the Yak-9 where
it mentioned a model Yak-9DD which had extra fuel
tanks installed for a range of up to just under 1400
miles. The stated purpose was for the escort of
American bombers attacking Romanian oil fields.

While the many raids against Ploesti are well known,
I've never heard of Soviet fighter escort for American
bombers during any of them, or other attacks elsewhere.

In fact, I don't think that many bomber raids against
Axis targets even originated from Soviet controlled
territory throughout the war, so it would seem a
special version of Yak-9 to do long range escort would
be unlikely.

What about long range Soviet attacks requiring the
services of an enhanced range fighter? Seems long
range bombing was pretty much a British/US activity.


The Soviets had a handful of long range bombers.
The Petlyakov Pe-8 was a 4 engined bomber with a
range of 2300 miles carrying 8000lbs of bombs.
They took part in at least one raid on Berlin in August 1941
but they mostly seem to have been used as long range VIP
transports. Molotov flew from Moscow to Washington in
one IRC.

Keith

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:05:54 -0500, Stephen Harding
wrote:

In fact, I don't think that many bomber raids against
Axis targets even originated from Soviet controlled
territory throughout the war

I can't think of any. Didn't the few planes that landed at Russian
bases simply refuel and return empty?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:05:54 -0500, Stephen Harding
wrote:

In fact, I don't think that many bomber raids against
Axis targets even originated from Soviet controlled
territory throughout the war

I can't think of any. Didn't the few planes that landed at Russian
bases simply refuel and return empty?


Not quite

The RAF launched the attack on the Tirpitz on 15th Sept 1944
from the Soviet base at Yagodnik using Lancasters of 617 and
9 Squadrons

Keith

Cub Driver wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:05:54 -0500, Stephen Harding
wrote:

In fact, I don't think that many bomber raids against
Axis targets even originated from Soviet controlled
territory throughout the war

I can't think of any. Didn't the few planes that landed at Russian
bases simply refuel and return empty?

I think that initially that was the case, but as the war
progressed, some raids actually originated from Soviet
controlled territory.

The number of them was exceedingly small as I understand
it. The Soviets didn't really seem comfortable having US
bomb groups working from their territory. Cooperation was
never especially good.

This leads me to believe the Yak-9DD either didn't really
exist, or more likely, was just an experiment in range
enhancement with no real practical use for the Soviets.


SMH

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
Cub Driver wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:05:54 -0500, Stephen Harding
wrote:

In fact, I don't think that many bomber raids against
Axis targets even originated from Soviet controlled
territory throughout the war

I can't think of any. Didn't the few planes that landed at Russian
bases simply refuel and return empty?

I think that initially that was the case, but as the war
progressed, some raids actually originated from Soviet
controlled territory.

The number of them was exceedingly small as I understand
it. The Soviets didn't really seem comfortable having US
bomb groups working from their territory. Cooperation was
never especially good.

After the war, a lot of the people who worked at the bases or who lived in
nearby towns were sent to Siberia to the Gulags and mines, as they had been
"tainted by the West." Stalin's orders. Those that survived were held for
years. Same thing happened to some of the POWs rescued from the Germans,
too....

This leads me to believe the Yak-9DD either didn't really
exist, or more likely, was just an experiment in range
enhancement with no real practical use for the Soviets.

Or a combination of that with a political exercise, something to hold before
their Allies as a gesture.

SMH

Stephen Harding wrote in message ...
Was looking at a reference page for the Yak-9 where
it mentioned a model Yak-9DD which had extra fuel
tanks installed for a range of up to just under 1400
miles.

The light alloy production in the USSR was small to start with and
heavily disrupted by the German attack. The result was much use
of wood in fighters, with the penalty the extra volume needed by
the wooden supports cutting down on space for things like fuel
tanks.

This meant lots of Soviet bomber raids needed to be staged
without fighter protection.

So the YAK-9D was a lightened version of the YAK-9, less firepower
for example, with the weight freed up being put into fuel tanks. It
apparently weighed 40kg more at take off than the standard YAK-9
while carrying an extra 190 litres of fuel. The 9D appeared in May
1943, range about 1,400 km, neatly matching the 1,300 km range of
the Pe-2.

The YAK-9DD was the longer ranged version, 850 litres of fuel
versus 640 litres in the 9D, range around 2,200 km. This appeared
in 1944. Does not look like the 9D or 9DD were fitted with drop tanks.
To an extent you can think of it as when metal replaced wood the
space saved was given over to fuel tanks.

The stated purpose was for the escort of
American bombers attacking Romanian oil fields.

There are claims some of the 9DD models "escorted" at least one
of the USAAF missions that shuttled from airbases in the USSR
to Italy. The Yaks were then attached for a while to the Balkan Air
Force, helping the partisans in Yugoslavia. So whether it was really
an escort is an open question.

While the many raids against Ploesti are well known,
I've never heard of Soviet fighter escort for American
bombers during any of them, or other attacks elsewhere.

Operation Frantic is the code name for the various USAAF missions
that used Soviet airbases. It looks like none of them were against
Ploesti.

All dates are 1944, USAAF bases in the USSR, Mirgorod and
Poltava for the bombers, Piryatin for the fighters. The USAAF
organisation in the USSR was called Eastern Command.

June 2, 15th Air Force, 130 B-17 and 70 P-51, attacked Hungary
and flew onto the USSR, most returned on 6 June attacking an
airbase in Romania, the rest on 11 June again attacking a
Romanian airbase.

June 21, 8th Air Force, 114 B-17 and 70 P-51, attacked targets
near Berlin then flew onto the USSR. Again the formation returned
in 2 parts. On June 26 attacked a refinery in Poland while flying to Italy,
on 3 July attacked a marshalling yard in Romania while flying to Italy.
The Luftwaffe bombed Poltava on the night of June 21/22 destroying
44 B-17s and damaging a further 26.

July 22, 15th Air Force, all fighter force, strafing airfields in Romania
then flying onto the USSR, on 25 July they flew a mission against the
Lwow airfield returning to Soviet airbases, not sure when the fighters
flew back to Italy.

August 4, 15th Air Force, all fighter force, after a direct Soviet
request, attacked a target in Romania then flew onto the USSR.
Returned to Italy on 6 August attacking rail targets in Hungary and
Romania.

August 6, 8th Air Force, 75 B-17 plus escort, most of which returns
to England, 1,592 mile round trip for the fighters, attacked an aircraft
factory in Poland then flew onto the USSR. On 7 August 55 of the
bombers with 29 fighters attacked oil refineries in Poland returning
to Soviet bases, flew to Italy on 8 August, attacking airbases.

September 11, 8th Air Force, 75 B-17 and 64 P-51, attacked
Chemnitz in Germany and flew onto the USSR. They flew to Italy
on 13 September attacking a steel plant in Hungary on the way.
The lack of trust by the USSR and the great distance the Soviet
airbases are now behind the lines means the decision is taken
to end Frantic missions.

18 September, 8th Air Force, 107 B-17 fly a supply drop to Poland
and then onto the USSR. These bombers attacked a marshalling
yard in Hungary on September 19 on the way to Italy.

In fact, I don't think that many bomber raids against
Axis targets even originated from Soviet controlled
territory throughout the war, so it would seem a
special version of Yak-9 to do long range escort would
be unlikely.

Correct, the long range YAK-9 versions were because of the short
range of the standard Red Air Force fighters, not because of expected
USAAF bomber support. After all the development of the types were
in 1942 and 1943 to appear in 1943 and 1944, so it would have to mean
the USA and USSR had agreements on such raids in 1942/43.

What about long range Soviet attacks requiring the
services of an enhanced range fighter? Seems long
range bombing was pretty much a British/US activity.

Very few Red Air Force long range missions during the war, some
raids on Berlin in 1941 for example but the longer range types tended
to be used as transports. The USSR could not afford having both a
"tactical" and "strategic" air force during the fighting.


Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

Actually, Yak-9DD ("Dalnego Dejstviya", or "long range") did exist and about 400 of them were built. Here's a photo:
http://www.aviation.ru/Yak/Yak-9DD.jpg The fighter was developed for long-range bomber escort missions and was equipped
with a US-made SCR-274N radio (http://www.battlefield.ru/radio/pics/radio_016.jpg). The Yak-9DD's max. range was 2285 km
and it could stay airborne for 6.5 hours. Yak-9DD was called by the pilots the "flying fuel tank" and it had only marginal
speed advantage over the bombers it escorted (mainly the Tu-2) when fully fuelled. A squadron of Yak-9DDs was used for
escort of Soviet C-47s from Italy to supply Yugoslav resistance. These fighters were also used to escort US B-17s and B-24s
that attacked targets in the Balkans and in Hungary taking off from Bari in southern Italy and landing at Poltava, where
they would refuel for a return trip.

The US flights from Bari to Poltava usually numbered 50-60 bombers and escort fighters (usually P-38s flown by US pilots).
There was an incident in November of 1944, when one such flight of about 50 US aircraft engaged a Soviet armored column
near Nis, Yugoslavia. These were intercepted by the fighters of the Soviet 866th fighter regiment. The Soviet pilots were
ordered not to open fire, but, being unable to establish radio contact with the American pilots... Four P-38s were shot
down (one by AAA fire) and two Soviet fighters were lost (one pilot was killed and one bailed out). The US planes destroyed
several Soviet vehicles killing a Soviet general. American explanation for the incident was that the lead P-38 believed
that the group got off-course and was over Pristina (marked on their maps as still under German control), while in fact the
Americans were near Nis just slightly off their usual route.

You can find a detailed account of these US bombing missions and the encounter between P-38s and the Soviet fighters over
Nis in "The Sky of My Youth" by Maj. Gen. Boris Smirnov, a Soviet ace pilot and the commander of the Soviet 288th fighter a
viation regiment during the Second World War.
--
Venik
www.aeronautics.ru



"Stephen Harding" wrote in message ...
Cub Driver wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:05:54 -0500, Stephen Harding
wrote:

In fact, I don't think that many bomber raids against
Axis targets even originated from Soviet controlled
territory throughout the war

I can't think of any. Didn't the few planes that landed at Russian
bases simply refuel and return empty?

I think that initially that was the case, but as the war
progressed, some raids actually originated from Soviet
controlled territory.

The number of them was exceedingly small as I understand
it. The Soviets didn't really seem comfortable having US
bomb groups working from their territory. Cooperation was
never especially good.

This leads me to believe the Yak-9DD either didn't really
exist, or more likely, was just an experiment in range
enhancement with no real practical use for the Soviets.


SMH

Venik wrote:
Actually, Yak-9DD ("Dalnego Dejstviya", or "long range") did exist and about 400 of them were built. Here's a photo:
http://www.aviation.ru/Yak/Yak-9DD.jpg The fighter was developed for long-range bomber escort missions and was equipped
with a US-made SCR-274N radio (http://www.battlefield.ru/radio/pics/radio_016.jpg). The Yak-9DD's max. range was 2285 km
and it could stay airborne for 6.5 hours. Yak-9DD was called by the pilots the "flying fuel tank" and it had only marginal
speed advantage over the bombers it escorted (mainly the Tu-2) when fully fuelled. A squadron of Yak-9DDs was used for
escort of Soviet C-47s from Italy to supply Yugoslav resistance. These fighters were also used to escort US B-17s and B-24s
that attacked targets in the Balkans and in Hungary taking off from Bari in southern Italy and landing at Poltava, where
they would refuel for a return trip.

[...]

Knew absolutely nothing of Soviet long range fighter
escort of American, or Soviet for that matter, bombers.

Thanks for some good info.


SMH