Best Naval Fighter, 1963

What's the best naval fighter of 1963? The mission is pure air defense, with not a pound for air to ground.

Not suprisingly, most web sites talk about modern planes and don't describe the tactics and equipment of this era.

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote in message
...
What's the best naval fighter of 1963? The mission is pure air defense,
with not a pound for air to ground.

Not suprisingly, most web sites talk about modern planes and don't
describe the tactics and equipment of this era.

Going strictly on how things were in 1963 the best fighter at the time was
the F-8. The F-4 which became a great fighter in its own right wasn't one at
that time. The F-4 was an interceptor which is not the same as a fighter.
The F-8 community practiced fighter tactics from missile range down to knife
fighting range. The F-4 practiced radar intercepts and firing BVR.

A good example was how the F-4's and F-8's greeted the Bears in the North
Atlantic. F-4's would approach from behind and slide into position on the
bears wing. The F-8 would announce their presence with a vertical pass (aka
thumping).

Top Gun was started because the "powers-that-be" finally realized that F-4's
couldn't shoot down a MiG-17, if they couldn't get it off their tail. A
little while latter the Air Force also recognized they had the same problem.

Red

Charles Talleyrand wrote:

What's the best naval fighter of 1963? The mission is pure air defense, with not a pound for air to ground.

Not suprisingly, most web sites talk about modern planes and don't describe the tactics and equipment of this era.


Barret Tillman's book Mig Master tells the story of a social event
where a Soviet official
was asked what aircraft the Soviets respected the most. The Soviet
official chose the F-8 as it
could appear nearly anywhere in the world and establish air superiority.

--
Lynn in StLou
REMOVE to reply

"Red" wrote in message m...
Going strictly on how things were in 1963 the best fighter at the time was
the F-8. The F-4 which became a great fighter in its own right wasn't one at
that time. The F-4 was an interceptor which is not the same as a fighter.
The F-8 community practiced fighter tactics from missile range down to knife
fighting range. The F-4 practiced radar intercepts and firing BVR.

A good example was how the F-4's and F-8's greeted the Bears in the North
Atlantic. F-4's would approach from behind and slide into position on the
bears wing. The F-8 would announce their presence with a vertical pass (aka
thumping).

Does this mean that the F-4 had a better radar and missile fit but the
F-8 could out dogfight? Going strictly by 1963 that is.

From what I've read the 1963 F-4 radar and missile systems were pretty
bad. The early sidewinders could only lock on to a read-view jet
exhaust and could be distracted by almost anything (sun, lake, etc.)
The Sparrow could not shoot anything below the shooter.

But what do I know, maybe the F-8 was worse.

Lynn in StLou wrote:

Charles Talleyrand wrote:

What's the best naval fighter of 1963? The mission is pure air defense, with not a pound for air to ground.

Not suprisingly, most web sites talk about modern planes and don't describe the tactics and equipment of this era.


Barret Tillman's book Mig Master tells the story of a social event
where a Soviet official
was asked what aircraft the Soviets respected the most. The Soviet
official chose the F-8 as it
could appear nearly anywhere in the world and establish air superiority.

--
Lynn in StLou
REMOVE to reply



F8 - The Last of the Gun Fighters...

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote in message
...

"Red" wrote in message
m...
Going strictly on how things were in 1963 the best fighter at the time
was
the F-8. The F-4 which became a great fighter in its own right wasn't
one at
that time. The F-4 was an interceptor which is not the same as a
fighter.
The F-8 community practiced fighter tactics from missile range down to
knife
fighting range. The F-4 practiced radar intercepts and firing BVR.

A good example was how the F-4's and F-8's greeted the Bears in the
North
Atlantic. F-4's would approach from behind and slide into position on
the
bears wing. The F-8 would announce their presence with a vertical pass
(aka
thumping).

Does this mean that the F-4 had a better radar and missile fit but the
F-8 could out dogfight? Going strictly by 1963 that is.

From what I've read the 1963 F-4 radar and missile systems were pretty
bad. The early sidewinders could only lock on to a read-view jet
exhaust and could be distracted by almost anything (sun, lake, etc.)
The Sparrow could not shoot anything below the shooter.

But what do I know, maybe the F-8 was worse.

You are doing what a lot of people do. You are confusing the role of fighter
and interceptor. The F-4 and the F-8 of the early 60's didn't even train
against each other, let alone doing the same type of training.

The F-4's primary role at this time was fleet defense, which meant that its
job was to intercept anything trying to attack the CV. That was bombers
which don't do a lot or high-g turning and burning, so it was cut them off
and shoot them down before they could get close enough to threaten the CV.

The F-8's role was air superiority. This is an offensive action not
defensive. The F-8 was to go into enemy territory (water of land) and
destroy the enemy's air.

Sure there was some overlap of roles. The F-8 had to do fleet defense on
CV's that didn't have F-4's. And F-4's would have to escort strikes.
Starting in 1965 things had to change. The F-8 had limited night capability.
As the CV's were operating in the Tonkin Gulf within range of N. Vietnam air
and a 24 hour BARCAP had to be maintained. This became the job of the F-4's.
There were usually two boring holes in the sky 24/7/365. Even the Marine
F-4's from DaNang got into the act, during bad weather and at times when
only one or two carriers were on Yankee Station. If there were no carriers
up north, then the Marines and Air Force kept a BARCAP near the eastern end
of the DMZ, just in case.

Until the rebuild programs started in 1966, the F-8 all-weather radar was
something that left a lot to be desired. (You had to use your flashlight to
see if it was turned on). The F-8 didn't carry the AIM-7 (Sparrow) and in
1963 the AIM-9B (the 1956 version) was the standard. I think I remember
hearing that there were over 45,000 AIM-9B's in all the US Ammo Dumps around
the world, and we would have to shoot these up before we would see any of
the newer versions which were being designed and built. I was willing to do
my part but, at 2-to-6 a year it was going to take a long time. And this was
right after the Cuban Missile Crisis, and they said we had to maintain
proficiency at all cost. With the 9-B you had to get behind and almost into
gun range before you shot. The 9-B only had a two mile range.

The F-4 with the AIM-7's had a supposed range of up to 15 miles. Even so
they did what every missile shooter of the day did. Salvo them, don't depend
on one to do the job.

Until recently the F-14 and F/A 18 roles were similar. The F-14 was fleet
defense, backed up by the F/A-18. Now with the Bombcat, and the new improved
Hornet things are not as clear.


Red

Or remember the poster:
"When you are out of F-8s you are out of fighters!"
with a tear in the eye of a fighter pilot?

WDA

end

"Richard Lamb" wrote in message
...
Lynn in StLou wrote:

Charles Talleyrand wrote:

What's the best naval fighter of 1963? The mission is pure air
defense, with not a pound for air to ground.

Not suprisingly, most web sites talk about modern planes and don't
describe the tactics and equipment of this era.


Barret Tillman's book Mig Master tells the story of a social event
where a Soviet official
was asked what aircraft the Soviets respected the most. The Soviet
official chose the F-8 as it
could appear nearly anywhere in the world and establish air superiority.

--
Lynn in StLou
REMOVE to reply



F8 - The Last of the Gun Fighters...

You could still get stickers of thast poster as of a year or so ago.

Or remember the poster:
"When you are out of F-8s you are out of fighters!"
with a tear in the eye of a fighter pilot?