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#11
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Larry Fransson wrote: On 2003-12-06 15:18:19 -0800, "Phil McAverty" said: Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC. Unless something has changed recently, yes they can. But in general, it's probably not going to happen. A friend of mine used to be an examiner. She told me that examiners are officially encouraged not to give checkrides in IMC. She went against that advice and an applicant show her just how messed up he could get. She decided not to do checkrides in IMC after that. Unless the aircraft has dual attitude indicators, etc., this doesn't appear to be a bright thing to do, even if the FAA permits it. |
#12
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Lynn Melrose wrote:
Where is Class A airspace used in the UK? In the US, it is only 18,000+ ft MSL, but I understand that it is used differently in other jurisdictions. Let me rephrase that, it is only 18,000ft - FL600 over most of the US. There are exceptions. |
#13
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What difference will dual attitude indicators make?
"Lynn Melrose" wrote in message ... Larry Fransson wrote: On 2003-12-06 15:18:19 -0800, "Phil McAverty" said: Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC. Unless something has changed recently, yes they can. But in general, it's probably not going to happen. A friend of mine used to be an examiner. She told me that examiners are officially encouraged not to give checkrides in IMC. She went against that advice and an applicant show her just how messed up he could get. She decided not to do checkrides in IMC after that. Unless the aircraft has dual attitude indicators, etc., this doesn't appear to be a bright thing to do, even if the FAA permits it. |
#14
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Richard Hertz wrote: What difference will dual attitude indicators make? "Lynn Melrose" wrote in message ... Larry Fransson wrote: On 2003-12-06 15:18:19 -0800, "Phil McAverty" said: Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC. Unless something has changed recently, yes they can. But in general, it's probably not going to happen. A friend of mine used to be an examiner. She told me that examiners are officially encouraged not to give checkrides in IMC. She went against that advice and an applicant show her just how messed up he could get. She decided not to do checkrides in IMC after that. Unless the aircraft has dual attitude indicators, etc., this doesn't appear to be a bright thing to do, even if the FAA permits it. For simulated instrument failures. |
#15
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Why do you need two? You can simulate the failure with just one.
Presumably the candidate AND the DE know how to fly with no AI. My instructor was a DE for a while - he would try to do practical in actual. If ATC said something about a deviation the candidate failed. Typically though most of the folks taking a checkride with him never got past the oral. "Lynn Melrose" wrote in message ... Richard Hertz wrote: What difference will dual attitude indicators make? "Lynn Melrose" wrote in message ... Larry Fransson wrote: On 2003-12-06 15:18:19 -0800, "Phil McAverty" said: Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC. Unless something has changed recently, yes they can. But in general, it's probably not going to happen. A friend of mine used to be an examiner. She told me that examiners are officially encouraged not to give checkrides in IMC. She went against that advice and an applicant show her just how messed up he could get. She decided not to do checkrides in IMC after that. Unless the aircraft has dual attitude indicators, etc., this doesn't appear to be a bright thing to do, even if the FAA permits it. For simulated instrument failures. |
#16
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"Lynn Melrose" wrote in message ... Phil McAverty wrote: That seems to be the best reason of all for doing checkrides in IMC. Seems to be a dumb policy to do a checkride in VMC and then letting them go off into IMC. In the USA, there are many places that rarely if ever ever see IMC. Such a policy would prohibit check rides there. The irony is that a FAA/IR will qualify for a UK IMC rating with only limited privileges in controlled airspace (class D only). The FAA/IR pilot can file IFR and fly in class A in the UK if the aircraft is US registered but not if the aircraft is UK registered. Where is Class A airspace used in the UK? In the US, it is only 18,000+ ft MSL, but I understand that it is used differently in other jurisdictions. Class A is used like they use Class B from the surface around major airports like London Heathrow & Gatwick, Manchester, reaching up and out into the airways. You can encounter Class A airways at FL55. Mind you there are pockets of class G going up to 24500ft |
#17
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"Jeffrey Voight" wrote in message ... That would be the state of nirvana. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Not to worry, Jeff. It's a goofy question. |
#18
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"Phil McAverty" wrote in message
... Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC. Mine was. To address some of the other points made in this thread: 1) We found some VMC to do the maneuvers. IMC can be patchy, after all. We canceled IFR at the end of the last approach and switched to Special VFR to get to the clearer air (which was 600ft lower in elevation than the airfield. The alternative was a discontinuance; I would have been fine with that because I could have done the maneuvers later while fresh. 2) It would have been nice to be able to lift the Jeppshades while we were in the clouds, but unfortunately I had snapped the hinge just before getting on the runway and they wouldn't stay up! For many people, flying in and out of clouds is more of a workload than staying simulated anyway. 3) The argument that the candidate can't be PIC because it's IMC is a curious one. You can't be PIC for IFR in VMC either. Do most people really do the approaches and holds under VFR? How does the examiner test your ability to handle ATC; you aren't guaranteed service if you ask for VFR handling. A checkride passed in IMC must be a big confidence booster. Well, it was, but the deck was stacked in enough other ways (faulty Jeppshades, weird windshifts, and the VOR was OTS for example) that it was a case of "if I can survive that, I can survive most IMC". -- David Brooks |
#19
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"David Reinhart" wrote in message ... No, they have to be done in VFR. Not necessarily true. Mine was done part in IMC part over the cloud deck (unusual attitudes etc). I think we cancelled IFR once over the top. This was in the SF Bay area (the checkride took part for the most part over the central valley which was fog bound). My VOR approach was in total IMC with a true missed. There's several reasons for this. One of them is that some of the tasks required (like unsual attitudes) would require a block altitude clearance and clearance to deviate from an assigned heading. Obviously in busy terminal airspace that could be difficult to do. On the legal side, the FAA requires the inspector or DE to make it clear to the applicant that he or she is the pilot in command, not the person giving the checkride. That being the case, since the applicant is not instrument rated he or she can not act as PIC of an aircraft operating under IFR. Dave Reinhart Phil McAverty wrote: Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC. Not being from the US, some States must have far worse weather than others and so I kinda assume that if its IMC weather on the day of the checkride then its done in IMC. I must admit that I wanted to have a checkride then doing it in IMC would be my preference. For a start it would be more comfortable than wearing a hood and be distracted by the effort of trying not to look. It might also give the examiner something more to concentrate on too. A checkride passed in IMC must be a big confidence booster. Phil |
#20
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To address 3).
Most of the approaches and holds I've done for my IFR ticket have been done under VFR. I'll call up approach control, request an approach, get vectors, etc., and they will issue clearances with the restriction to "maintain VFR". Under VFR I always get an "alternate" missed approach procedure. I don't know about other areas, but around here you have to request and get approval to fly the published missed approach procedure under VFR. During a practical test, I don't think you actually have to contact ATC at all. The examiner can give you a "simulated" clearance, for example. Your ability to handle ATC is documented by your long cross-country which must be flown under IFR and your instructor's sign-off that you're ready to take the test. In many situations, of course, you'll have to deal with ATC for approaches even in VFR, but out here it is possible to fly ILS/LOC (KEEN), VOR (KEEN, KORE, KGDM), and NDB (KFIT, KORE) approaches under VFR at uncontrolled airports and never have to say a word to ATC. Without vectors you'd have to fly the full approach, but what the heck. As others have pointed out, in some parts of the country (Florida and the Southwest) it's actually very difficult to fly actual IFR. The High Desert of California where I grew up has VFR weather 350+ days a year. It's completely possible for a pilot to go through an entire IFR course and never fly in actual IMC. I don't know about you, but I was always told, when filing IFR during training, to use the my instructor's name as PIC. Just like your first solo, you're "flying on his ticket" and any screwups you make come back to haunt him. During the check, the DE isn't going tell you (on purpose anyway) to do anything illegal, but neither does he have to be willing to put his ticket on the block. I don't even know that it's necessary for a DE to be a current CFII. Dave Reinhart David Brooks wrote: "Phil McAverty" wrote in message ... Just wondering whether IR checkrides can be carried out in real IMC. Mine was. To address some of the other points made in this thread: 1) We found some VMC to do the maneuvers. IMC can be patchy, after all. We canceled IFR at the end of the last approach and switched to Special VFR to get to the clearer air (which was 600ft lower in elevation than the airfield. The alternative was a discontinuance; I would have been fine with that because I could have done the maneuvers later while fresh. 2) It would have been nice to be able to lift the Jeppshades while we were in the clouds, but unfortunately I had snapped the hinge just before getting on the runway and they wouldn't stay up! For many people, flying in and out of clouds is more of a workload than staying simulated anyway. 3) The argument that the candidate can't be PIC because it's IMC is a curious one. You can't be PIC for IFR in VMC either. Do most people really do the approaches and holds under VFR? How does the examiner test your ability to handle ATC; you aren't guaranteed service if you ask for VFR handling. A checkride passed in IMC must be a big confidence booster. Well, it was, but the deck was stacked in enough other ways (faulty Jeppshades, weird windshifts, and the VOR was OTS for example) that it was a case of "if I can survive that, I can survive most IMC". -- David Brooks |
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